Romans 8:29-30 exposition

[Covenanter]

S-D
.....
Either Calvinism is a lie, or God is a liar and not at all who he says he is in the bible. That is pretty much the only two reasonable conclusions that can be reached when Calvinism is contrasted with the whole of scripture. The fact that it of necessity makes God a capricious unholy liar is doubtless the single biggest issue with calvinism....

That language is a vile slander on Bible-believing Gospel-preaching Christians. All you are doing is reviling your own wilful misunderstanding of first Scripture, then the doctrine nicknamed "Calvinism."

Do you doubt the unconditional election of Abraham's descendants? Or the election of Jacob & rejection of Esau?

Deu 7:6 ¶ For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deu 14:2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth.

Neh 9:7 Thou [art] the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham; .....

Mal 1:2 ¶ I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, ...

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶ What shall we say then? [is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

The "anti-calvinist" answer to Paul's "What shall we say then? [is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid" is Seth-Doty's "God is a liar ... closer to a thug and a bully than the righteous judge scripture declares him to be and there would be nothing to morally recommend him over the devil."

I will address the OP in a future post. Edited June 19, 2011 by Covenanter

[anime4christ]

I finally found the challenge I was looking for in this particular work: http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Rom_8_28.pdf

The problem here is he totally redefines "foreknow" to mean knowing things in the past rather than knowing ahead of time, which makes sense, but does not agree with the KJB. But to help you guys out, that guy has a better argument for your system than anything brought up here so far.

[Covenanter]

OP:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. - Romans 8:29-30

There is a simply & clear chain of divine action that can ONLY apply to the saved. Only the saved are glorified & justified, & the calling specifically effects that saved state. Only the saved will be conformed to the image of his Son.

Let the opponents of free & Sovereign grace malign the doctrine & its adherents as they will, they cannot nullify the truth of God's Word. Be warned against maligning God himself as S-D does. Be humbled before our Sovereign God.

Why do they twist the sacred Word? Perhaps because in their unregenerate state they believed they had freedom to repent & believe, or freedom to reject the gracious Gospel call according to their own free will. They assert God contradicts himself within a single verse when Jesus declares:
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

They insist that the gracious Gospel call implies the innate ability of sinful man, dead in trespasses & sins to respond & come to life without the all-powerful "Breath of God" instilling spiritual life.

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
....
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

God uses his Word preached to call out his elect. He has ordained Gospel preaching to effect the salvation of his people, & laid that responsibility on us. Election gives no motive for neglect of God's commands whether in preaching, witnessing or living.

[Seth Doty]

OK, you must back that claim up that this is the case with Calvinism. You have a perfect opportunity to do so by explaining the passage at the beginning of this thread in an expository fashion which would explain what it really means. I find several serious problems with this section of your post. You just accused Calvinists of taking verses out of context that seem to teach the doctrine when taken on there own, and then you took several verses out of context which say nothing for or against election, and attempted to prove your point in the fashion you accused Calvinism does, but in a worse manner. Also, you completely ignored the request in the beginning of this thread. Write your own exposition on Romans 8:29-30 (you can include v 28 as well if you wish) which lets us know what it is really saying. How come Arminians never follow the rules? You guys frustrate me every time because you can never engage in the debate on the same platform, using the same rules as I am. I just want to know what the text says. Is that so hard?

I did not bother to explain the verses you brought up because I have dealt with Calvinists for a while and as a general rule I have found when they bring up passages like the one in the OP it isn't because they have never heard a non-calvinist explanation for them, but rather they have already heard the non-calvinst position, rejected it, and are merely attempting to get in a plug for the Calvinist doctrine.

If you insist though I will give the explanation for it though doubtless you will reject the explanation as pretty much all Calvinists will since the OP appears to be essentially a typical plug for Calvinism rather than a serious question.

"Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

The focus of the passage is believers and specifically the long term goodness of God toward them that have believed. With that context and looking at the verses in the OP we see the first mentioned is Gods foreknowledge. God knows what will happen before it happens. He knows what choices you will make, what you will accept, what you will reject, everything. However the fact that God knows what you will do does not mean you have no choice in the matter, it merely means God is many steps ahead of you and is not held by the bounds of time and sees all choices that will be made as if they are already made. So we see that first comes foreknowledge, and AFTER foreknowledge comes predestination. But predestination to what? Not to salvation. Predestination to be conformed into the image of his son. Believers have been predestined to be conformed into the likeness of Christ. As it is written: "1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." The rest of the passage in question is simply back tracking and then continuing the progression of events.

Other NT verses bear out that God has foreknowledge of who will be saved, but does not predestinate anyone to salvation. For example: "1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

This verse teaches that God has foreknowledge of who will listen to the call of the Spirit and be saved through the blood of Christ, but it does not teach that God predestined those people to make that choice, he just knew what their choice would be which is not the same thing at all. One option is freedom, the other option is a robot which hardly brings glory to God. It is the difference between children genuinely praising their parents out of love and respect and the parents making and playing recordings wherein they praise themselves. One is valuable and means something, the other is worthless and means nothing at all. At least nothing positive.

First, you have an inaccurate perception of Calvinism.

That is pretty much what all Calvinists say when arguing for Calvanism against those who stand against it. It is always "misunderstood" unless you say you agree with it. Actually, I do not believe I have an "inaccurate perception of Calvinism". I have talked with many of them at length, read Calvinistic writings, and I usually have a decent grasp of what people are trying to say on other topics. If I wanted to and believed it I could just as easily argue from the Calvinist point of view. It is not a understanding issue, rather I find it to be a horrible unbiblical doctrine created by people who try so hard(and fail) to intellectually explain the finer details of how God works that they miss the fundamental truth of who God says he is. Edited June 19, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[Seth Doty]

Your evangelism argument can also be an argument used against prayer. "Well, God already knows, He doesn't really change His mind..."

This goes back to Gods foreknowledge. Yes, God already knows what will be prayed and what his response will be, yet you still have a choice to pray or not and your choice determines what Gods foreknowledge from eternity past was. In a sense the past, the present, and the future are all one to God. As it is written: "Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

What you don't realize is that. If God didn't elect some, ALL of us would go to Hell. Psalms 14, Psalms 53, and Romans 3 (which is quoting from Psalms) tell us that NO MAN seeks after God. Nor does any [lost] man do any good! Man cannot repent and trust Christ unless they are drawn (John 6:44)*, because they hate God with a passion. They cannot because they will not.

* Want to expound on this. It says that if a man is drawn, he will be risen up on the last day. Now, we're both Pre-Mill. Revelation 20 tells us that the saved will all be resurrected when Christ returns/the beginning of the Millennium! All of them.

Every man is given through grace the light and the ability(at least for a time, Gods Spirit will not always strive with man) to respond to Gods call if they so choose. Yes, without that light no man could come to God, but God gives that light universally.

Some verses attesting to that:

"John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. "

"John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

"John 12: 35-36 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them."

Then there is this passage:

"John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

Here we see that God in his mercy does not condemn men to hell based on what they do not know(though he could if he wished as ignorance is not sufficient excuse see how Christ deals with Christians in Luke 12:48) rather he condemns them based on their rejection of that which the Spirit of God and the law "written in their hearts" shows them to be the light. as it is written: "John 3:20-21 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

[Invicta]

I did not bother to explain the verses you brought up because I have dealt with Calvinists for a while and as a general rule I have found when they bring up passages like the one in the OP it isn't because they have never heard a non-calvinist explanation for them, but rather they have already heard the non-calvinst position, rejected it, and are merely attempting to get in a plug for the Calvinist doctrine.

If you insist though I will give the explanation for it though doubtless you will reject the explanation as pretty much all Calvinists will since the OP appears to be essentially a typical plug for Calvinism rather than a serious question.

"Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

The focus of the passage is believers and specifically the long term goodness of God toward them that have believed. With that context and looking at the verses in the OP we see the first mentioned is Gods foreknowledge. God knows what will happen before it happens. He knows what choices you will make, what you will accept, what you will reject, everything. However the fact that God knows what you will do does not mean you have no choice in the matter, it merely means God is many steps ahead of you and is not held by the bounds of time and sees all choices that will be made as if they are already made. So we see that first comes foreknowledge, and AFTER foreknowledge comes predestination. But predestination to what? Not to salvation. Predestination to be conformed into the image of his son. Believers have been predestined to be conformed into the likeness of Christ. As it is written: "1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." The rest of the passage in question is simply back tracking and then continuing the progression of events.

Other NT verses bear out that God has foreknowledge of who will be saved, but does not predestinate anyone to salvation. For example: "1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

This verse teaches that God has foreknowledge of who will listen to the call of the Spirit and be saved through the blood of Christ, but it does not teach that God predestined those people to make that choice, he just knew what their choice would be which is not the same thing at all. One option is freedom, the other option is a robot which hardly brings glory to God. It is the difference between children genuinely praising their parents out of love and respect and the parents making and playing recordings wherein they praise themselves. One is valuable and means something, the other is worthless and means nothing at all. At least nothing positive.




That is pretty much what all Calvinists say when arguing for Calvanism against those who stand against it. It is always "misunderstood" unless you say you agree with it. Actually, I do not believe I have an "inaccurate perception of Calvinism". I have talked with many of them at length, read Calvinistic writings, and I usually have a decent grasp of what people are trying to say on other topics. If I wanted to and believed it I could just as easily argue from the Calvinist point of view. It is not a understanding issue, rather I find it to be a horrible unbiblical doctrine created by people who try so hard(and fail) to intellectually explain the finer details of how God works that they miss the fundamental truth of who God says he is.

A very long post to say you don't believe what the scripture plainly teaches.

[Seth Doty]

I finally found the challenge I was looking for in this particular work: http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Rom_8_28.pdf

The problem here is he totally redefines "foreknow" to mean knowing things in the past rather than knowing ahead of time, which makes sense, but does not agree with the KJB. But to help you guys out, that guy has a better argument for your system than anything brought up here so far.

Before you get all worked up over the "challenge"(and much of the appeal of Calvinism is based on phony intellectualism in my opinion) remember this: "1 Corinthians 3:19-20 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." There are very, very, few bible doctrines that are complicated, nor is arguing over bible doctrine for the "challenge" going to result in a clearer view of the truth of God. "1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither ° can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Not to pick on you to much for that as it is something no doubt many of us are tempted to do in the flesh at times, but if that impulse is there it is not of God and we would probably do better to say nothing at all.

[John81]

Before you get all worked up over the "challenge"(and much of the appeal of Calvinism is based on phony intellectualism in my opinion) remember this: "1 Corinthians 3:19-20 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." There are very, very, few bible doctrines that are complicated, nor is arguing over bible doctrine for the "challenge" going to result in a clearer view of the truth of God. "1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither ° can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Not to pick on you to much for that as it is something no doubt many of us are tempted to do in the flesh at times, but if that impulse is there it is not of God and we would probably do better to say nothing at all.

I agree Bible doctrine is generally not complicated. However, from what I have read of the Calvinist and non-Calvinist views, neither are complicated. There have been some outright Arminian views I've read that seemed rather complicated, but I've not seen those expressed here.

In any event, I'm finding this discussion worth following.

[Seth Doty]

I agree Bible doctrine is generally not complicated. However, from what I have read of the Calvinist and non-Calvinist views, neither are complicated.

Ok, but if one holds that neither position is "complicated" I don't see why this discussion could be called a "challenge" as challenges are presumed to be difficult or hard on some level. Ah well, back to topic, no point in taking this further, it was just a general caution that holds true for any biblical topic no matter what ones position.

[John81]

Ok, but if one holds that neither position is "complicated" I don't see why this discussion could be called a "challenge" as challenges are presumed to be difficult or hard on some level. Ah well, back to topic, no point in taking this further, it was just a general caution that holds true for any biblical topic no matter what ones position.

I agree, and I understood the point you were making, I just felt like commenting on that aspect. The term challenge can be taken in different ways and was perhaps a poor choice of words as in writing it's difficult to tell the specific meaning. Myself, by challenge, I thought he was referring to a worthy rebuttal, a worthy "challenge" to his position, an opposing view put forth that was worthy of his consideration. I may be wrong.

Sorry to sidetrack, not my intention. Proceed... :icon_mrgreen:

[Crushmaster]

This goes back to Gods foreknowledge. Yes, God already knows what will be prayed and what his response will be, yet you still have a choice to pray or not and your choice determines what Gods foreknowledge from eternity past was. In a sense the past, the present, and the future are all one to God. As it is written: "Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Yes, we have a choice to pray or not, and we have a choice to witness or not.

Every man is given through grace the light and the ability(at least for a time, Gods Spirit will not always strive with man) to respond to Gods call if they so choose. Yes, without that light no man could come to God, but God gives that light universally.

Sorry, that's a misuse of Genesis 6:3. God says, "My Spirit shall not always strive with man; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." This is talking about the time He gave men to repent before He sent the Flood. Has no bearing today.

"John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. "

Correct, Romans 1 tells us that the visible declares the invisible.

"John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Yep, and He did. All types of men came to see Him crucified.

Or, He drew all the Elect, which are of all peoples, tongues, classes, etc.

I am inclined to believe the former interpretation, as it says, in verse thirty-three, that He said this to tell of the way in which He was going to die. I don't even think this is a spiritual verse; it's a literal one, I believe.

Also: you didn't address my point about John 6:44, regarding the resurrection, being risen up at the last day, etc.

"John 12: 35-36 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them."

Actually, I think this is another literal verse. Christ was fixing to be crucified. Note how He says, "A little while is the light with you." It reminds me of this...

John 7:32-34
King James Version (KJV)
32The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.
33Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
34Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

From here.

"John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

They declared themselves guiltless, thus they were guilty.

Here we see that God in his mercy does not condemn men to hell based on what they do not know(though he could if he wished as ignorance is not sufficient excuse see how Christ deals with Christians in Luke 12:48) rather he condemns them based on their rejection of that which the Spirit of God and the law "written in their hearts" shows them to be the light. as it is written: "John 3:20-21 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

I don't deny man rejects God. No one does. He cannot repent because he will not. God is not fighting against his will, he is allowing him to go his own way. For man hates God! The carnal mind is at enmity with God. That is why, without election (no man elects himself! Christians are called God's elect, chosen), all of us would go off into damnation, loving our sin to the last, spitting in God's Face as we walked on to our doom.

Man is evil. He really is evil. And he will not "choose" God unless he is born again (John 3), unless he is given eyes to see.

How would you interpret this verse, Seth?

Acts 13:48
King James Version (KJV)
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

From here. Excellent resource!
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8.

[anime4christ]

Before you get all worked up over the "challenge"(and much of the appeal of Calvinism is based on phony intellectualism in my opinion) remember this: "1 Corinthians 3:19-20 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." There are very, very, few bible doctrines that are complicated, nor is arguing over bible doctrine for the "challenge" going to result in a clearer view of the truth of God. "1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither ° can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Not to pick on you to much for that as it is something no doubt many of us are tempted to do in the flesh at times, but if that impulse is there it is not of God and we would probably do better to say nothing at all.

Since when is Bible doctrine the foolishness of this world? How is it that very, very few Bible doctrines are complex (I like to use that word over complicated, because the connotations of that word can mean having problems) when Peter says the opposite? "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." - 2 Peter 3:15-16. Not only are there very complex things in the Bible (which doesn't mean it doesn't have simplicity as well), but Paul wrote them according to the wisdom given him. I doubt it was according to the wisdom of this world that he wrote them. The impulse to really find out what the Bible is saying regardless of what appeals to me and my fallen tastes is not from God? Then where is it from? You're basically claiming here and in the rest of your post that it is from my depraved nature. I wonder how that works.

I agree, and I understood the point you were making, I just felt like commenting on that aspect. The term challenge can be taken in different ways and was perhaps a poor choice of words as in writing it's difficult to tell the specific meaning. Myself, by challenge, I thought he was referring to a worthy rebuttal, a worthy "challenge" to his position, an opposing view put forth that was worthy of his consideration. I may be wrong.

Sorry to sidetrack, not my intention. Proceed...

Yep, that is what I mean, John. I am currently a member at a church where Calvinists are looked down upon. I have many friends who started calling me a heretic after I became a Calvinist. The doctrine was repulsive to me at first and I fought long and hard against it. Calvinism is not the desire of my flesh. Many people have turned on me since I became reformed. My flesh wants friends, fun, and pride. The doctrines of grace tell me I am totally depraved without the Spirit of God and I cannot take any credit for any good that is done through me and even for accepting Jesus. The doctrines of grace make me look deeper inside myself and see all the filth that God is removing from me as He sanctifies me. The doctrines of grace tell me that only God is worthy of honor for any of this. This is not what my flesh wants because it is often painful, so I don't see how one could claim this is carnal.

[Seth Doty]

Sorry, that's a misuse of Genesis 6:3. God says, "My Spirit shall not always strive with man; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." This is talking about the time He gave men to repent before He sent the Flood. Has no bearing today.

If you would like other verses that teach the same thing I can provide them, it was a general application of a principle of scripture rather than a direct application. The principle is if God's call is resisted long enough the conscience can become "seared with a hot iron" to the point they cannot hear/or God no longer calls.


"Isaiah 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not."

"Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it."

"Jeremiah 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee."

Also: you didn't address my point about John 6:44, regarding the resurrection, being risen up at the last day, etc.

The "last day", is not speaking of a day which is the last "day" period, rather it is a term that describes the harvest, rapture, etc.

Man is evil. He really is evil. And he will not "choose" God unless he is born again (John 3), unless he is given eyes to see.

If that were true then God would appear to be mocking the lost for no reason by calling for them to repent when he not only knows that they will not, but knows they cannot because he has not given them the ability to respond to his call.

It is written:


"Psalm 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee."

"Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works."

Predestining some to hell without giving them the slightest chance would not be being "good to all" unless your going to go back to that "all means all types of people" rather than everyone. Hell(and then the lake of fire) is after all the worst thing that could possibly happen to a man. You could say it was "just" perhaps in the sense they didn't deserve anything, but you could not say it was being "good" to them or showing them "tender mercies" to appoint them to that without any sort of a chance.

It would also fly in the face of the general character of God displayed in passages like this one:

"Matthew 5:44-45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

"Luke 6:35-36 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful."


Why are we to do this? So that we are children of our father. If the Calvinist view were right it might say something like this: "be kind to some of the evil, bless them, etc., but randomly kill other ones for doing exactly the same things that ye may be children of your father". No, God is good to all, he calls everyone and everyone is given the ability to respond to his call. It is a choice.

How would you interpret this verse, Seth?

Acts 13:48
King James Version (KJV)
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Contextually these seem to be gentiles that had believed Moses and the followed God to the best of their knowledge already. If that is the case they would already be saved in the same sense OT saints were. They had already believed God to the extent they had light and so had already been "ordained" to eternal life. Therefore they received the gospel with joy when they heard it. That seems to be the most likely situation but I wouldn't be dogmatic on it as I cannot be 100% sure it is correct.

[Seth Doty]

Since when is Bible doctrine the foolishness of this world? How is it that very, very few Bible doctrines are complex (I like to use that word over complicated, because the connotations of that word can mean having problems) when Peter says the opposite? "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." - 2 Peter 3:15-16. Not only are there very complex things in the Bible (which doesn't mean it doesn't have simplicity as well), but Paul wrote them according to the wisdom given him. I doubt it was according to the wisdom of this world that he wrote them. The impulse to really find out what the Bible is saying regardless of what appeals to me and my fallen tastes is not from God? Then where is it from? You're basically claiming here and in the rest of your post that it is from my depraved nature. I wonder how that works.

"Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."

The scriptures are spiritually discerned. That is doubtless why the vast majority of the time nothing of much substance is gained by arguing. Both sides remain convinced they are right since a spiritual change must occur in order to see much of the time. For that very reason I have strongly considered giving up arguing online with people I do not know over bible doctrine as I am skeptical that it does any good and may even do harm by hardening them into the wrong positions. On the other hand I am not sure it is right to leave error undisputed either lest it lead others into error. Still haven't completely made up my mind about the right balance.

[Crushmaster]

"Isaiah 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not."

"Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it."

"Jeremiah 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee."

Yes...and?

The "last day", is not speaking of a day which is the last "day" period, rather it is a term that describes the harvest, rapture, etc.

I'm afraid you are in error.

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

All believers are resurrected when Christ returns/at the beginning of the Millennium. The rest of the dead are not risen until after the thousand years (that is, the lost). This doesn't work if John 6:44 refers to believers and unbelievers (it also doesn't work with a Pre/Mid-Trib Rapture, but that's another subject).

If that were true then God would appear to be mocking the lost for no reason by calling for them to repent when he not only knows that they will not, but knows they cannot because he has not given them the ability to respond to his call.

I've already addressed this. They cannot because of their own depravity, which they love and embrace. God is not forcing them to not believe.

Predestining some to hell without giving them the slightest chance would not be being "good to all" unless your going to go back to that "all means all types of people" rather than everyone. Hell(and then the lake of fire) is after all the worst thing that could possibly happen to a man. You could say it was "just" perhaps in the sense they didn't deserve anything, but you could not say it was being "good" to them or showing them "tender mercies" to appoint them to that without any sort of a chance.

I didn't say He predestined anyone to Hell.

It would also fly in the face of the general character of God displayed in passages like this one:

Why are we to do this? So that we are children of our father. If the Calvinist view were right it might say something like this: "be kind to some of the evil, bless them, etc., but randomly kill other ones for doing exactly the same things that ye may be children of your father". No, God is good to all, he calls everyone and everyone is given the ability to respond to his call. It is a choice.

Yes, it is a choice. But man cannot make it without God, because he hates God.

God is merciful to all. But He does not love all (Psalms 5:5-6, etc., etc.), and He does not intend to save all.

Contextually these seem to be gentiles that had believed Moses and the followed God to the best of their knowledge already. If that is the case they would already be saved in the same sense OT saints were. They had already believed God to the extent they had light and so had already been "ordained" to eternal life. Therefore they received the gospel with joy when they heard it. That seems to be the most likely situation but I wouldn't be dogmatic on it as I cannot be 100% sure it is correct.

Well...I have to admit, that doesn't make any sense to me.

I myself couldn't explain that verse before I believed in the doctrines of grace (a.k.a., Calvinism).
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8.