Is such applied today

[Annie]

"One could not teach in our Sunday School without having a very high standard of godly living. One who attended the movies or danced or played bridge or used tobacco was not, we thought, a good enough Christian to be a teacher and example to young people."

John R. Rice

I agree with the principle of the OP...that we should place worthy role models in front of children, and that these posts should not be filled with worldly, carnal, or spiritually immature people. I question the wisdom, though, of applying these specific standards across the board. In my opinion, playing bridge is no more worldly than playing FarMVille on Facebook or Solitaire on your desktop. Maybe it was considered to be so "back then" (whenever this article was written).

[Annie]

If a church is facing the situation where not enough people are volunteering to work (Sunday school, VBS, nursery, deacons, boards, etc.), how should the pastor and church leadership deal with such a situation? Is it acceptable to lower standards in order to fill positions? If yes, just how much lower will the new line be drawn? Will that new line then be drawn even lower the next time there is a need?

Should the pastor call the congregation to task for their lack of service? Should there be direct efforts to get particular members to step forward in service?

There are many churches today which are basically ran by women because it was decided to lower standards in order to fill positions. This continued until eventually there were women deacons, women running the church boards, and in some cases even having women associate pastors or even pastors. In the churches even more far removed from Scripture, they have even been willing to accept homosexuals in all these positions.

How many churches today take such issues to the Lord and await His working in the situation, even if that means putting some things on hold or even shutting some things down for a time until the Lord provides?

I think that if I were a pastor of a church full of spiritually immature people, I would have to look toward my own leadership for reasons why this is so. Why is there a lack for workers? What am I missing in my teaching? Could it be that I am not leading by example? Could it be that I am not exhorting people to use their spiritual gifts in the church?

John, I'm not sure what the relationship is between "lower standards" and "women in leadership." It sounds like you are demeaning women here by saying that their lives are less exemplary than those of the men in the church. (I am NOT AT ALL in favor of women serving in church leadership, but I don't think that it has anything to do with "lowering standards" of personal godliness.)

If a church is facing the situation where not enough people are volunteering to work (Sunday school, VBS, nursery, deacons, boards, etc.), how should the pastor and church leadership deal with such a situation? Is it acceptable to lower standards in order to fill positions? If yes, just how much lower will the new line be drawn? Will that new line then be drawn even lower the next time there is a need?

I think one answer to this is that VBS, Sunday school, and other "programs" are not mandated in Scripture. If there are no qualified people to serve in these capacities, then one solution would be not to offer these programs. If a pastor doesn't have even 2 or 3 good men to serve as deacons in a well-established church, then he needs to ask himself why not, and prayerfully consider solutions to the problem. Perhaps the pastor could give priority to teaching about spiritual maturity, and increase his personal discipleship of the men in the church.

I Tim. 3 gives us the qualifications for deacons: "grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre...pure conscience, blameless, wives that are sober, grave, not slanderers, faithful...husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." Edited May 18, 2011 by Annie

[John81]

I think that if I were a pastor of a church full of spiritually immature people, I would have to look toward my own leadership for reasons why this is so. Why is there a lack for workers? What am I missing in my teaching? Could it be that I am not leading by example? Could it be that I am not exhorting people to use their spiritual gifts in the church?

John, I'm not sure what the relationship is between "lower standards" and "women in leadership." It sounds like you are demeaning women here by saying that their lives are less exemplary than those of the men in the church. (I am NOT AT ALL in favor of women serving in church leadership, but I don't think that it has anything to do with "lowering standards" of personal godliness.)


I think one answer to this is that VBS, Sunday school, and other "programs" are not mandated in Scripture. If there are no qualified people to serve in these capacities, then one solution would be not to offer these programs. If a pastor doesn't have even 2 or 3 good men to serve as deacons in a well-established church, then he needs to ask himself why not, and prayerfully consider solutions to the problem. Perhaps the pastor could give priority to teaching about spiritual maturity, and increase his personal discipleship of the men in the church.

I Tim. 3 gives us the qualifications for deacons: "grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre...pure conscience, blameless, wives that are sober, grave, not slanderers, faithful...husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."

Many churches have lowered their standards so often that eventually they lower them to the point of allowing women into positions the Bible prohibits.

I agree a pastor should conisder what steps he can take to bring his congregation into being willingly active. That's what a godly pastor would likely do. It's sad that so many pastors today are more concerned about not upsetting the women in their church, the major donors, the "big name" members and others that they refuse to lead properly.

I'm also in agreement that if there are no qualified volunteers then it would be better to end various programs until some step forward rather than to fill those positions with unqualified people.

[JerryNumbers]

There's many things that are completely bad, anything that has a touch of sin within it, its 100% bad, there is nothing good about it, its evil.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?


As for TV shows, movies, I would have to say they're 95 % are bad, if not more.

For most TV shows, most movies, portray sin in one way or the other. And Hollywood knows that sex gets people into the movie houses, TV shows knows that sex gets people to turn in and watch a show.


As far as Christians attending movies.

Abstain from all appearances of evil. 1 Thessalonians 5:22

Touch not; taste not; handle not, Colossians 2:21

And yes, I understand, most Christians loves the movies, the TV shows, and they will not give it up, even for their Savior.

[John81]

Good points Jerry, and that's how most true Christians prior to the 1960s viewed such matters. Today it's all about feelings, liberation, freedom, doing whatever one things is necessary.

How can a divorced women with rebellious children living with her be considered a good person to teach Sunday school? Yet I've seen such happen. Why is the foul-mouthed, rude, arrogant sports fanatic who makes a spectacle of himself at every game viewed as fine to be in church leadership? I've seen this too.

There was an uproar in a small town when a new pastor started a new church in that town. He preached the need for Christians to pursue personal holiness and as part of this he pointed out the evils and sins of drinking alcohol. That didn't sit well with most of the members of the biggest church in town, considering most of them drank, most of them were drunk every weekend (if not more often) and most of them who had teenagers, their teens were already heavy drinkers.

Those attempting to learn and obey the Word of God were attacked and vilified by those who wanted to simply play Christian without any cost.

[Pastorj]

I pastored a church in Michigan that had a witch for a Sunday School teacher when I arrived. I was told that she is a "good" person. I took a lot of heat, but I had to remove 1/2 of my teachers and the ohter half quit (Praise the Lord). We were able to train some young couples, but they eventually quit because I wouldn't let them put Santa up in their classroom.

Fortunately, I was only there 10 months and we agreed with the deacons it wasn't a good fit.

The church we attended for the next couple years had only 1 or 2 SS teachers that actually came to church on Sunday night and Wednesday.

We moved to NC and the church we are at is not much different. SS teachers are just not fully sold out.

Pastor's are afraid to offend someone because that someone is related to half the church.

[John81]

Pastor's are afraid to offend someone because that someone is related to half the church.

That's a real issue in this very rural area. On occasion it can be a positive because if the right ones can be motivated and get on fire for the Lord, they often stir up many of their relatives as well. Of course, it can work the other way where someone will turn cold and when they fall away so do some of their family and friends.

Our church usually does pretty well having Sunday school teachers who are reliable during the school year. It's during the summer months it's more difficult to fill the positions. I'm on our churches Christian Education Board and for this coming summer we are going to have to combine some classes due to lack of willing teachers (plus one who will be having surgery next month). It's fairly easy to combine some classes for the summer because, unfortunately, Sunday school attendance tends to drop some in the summer and then pick back up again in the fall.

We have been trying to get more parents involved in the adult Sunday school classes and encouraging them to get their children into Sunday school too. They meet at the same time so it's even convenient. Sad to say, not much progress there. For some, it's hard enough to get them to attend church services regularly, they don't seem to have any interest in spending another hour at church for Sunday school.

In any case, I'm thankful for those we do have attending the adult Sunday school classes and our childrens Sunday school classes.

A nearby church has it much easier because they have nearly no standards for who can teach Sunday school and their classes are all about fun and games; as are their youth groups. You guessed it, their classes are full.

[revivedbygrace]

That's a real issue in this very rural area. On occasion it can be a positive because if the right ones can be motivated and get on fire for the Lord, they often stir up many of their relatives as well. Of course, it can work the other way where someone will turn cold and when they fall away so do some of their family and friends.

Our church usually does pretty well having Sunday school teachers who are reliable during the school year. It's during the summer months it's more difficult to fill the positions. I'm on our churches Christian Education Board and for this coming summer we are going to have to combine some classes due to lack of willing teachers (plus one who will be having surgery next month). It's fairly easy to combine some classes for the summer because, unfortunately, Sunday school attendance tends to drop some in the summer and then pick back up again in the fall.

We have been trying to get more parents involved in the adult Sunday school classes and encouraging them to get their children into Sunday school too. They meet at the same time so it's even convenient. Sad to say, not much progress there. For some, it's hard enough to get them to attend church services regularly, they don't seem to have any interest in spending another hour at church for Sunday school.

In any case, I'm thankful for those we do have attending the adult Sunday school classes and our childrens Sunday school classes.

A nearby church has it much easier because they have nearly no standards for who can teach Sunday school and their classes are all about fun and games; as are their youth groups. You guessed it, their classes are full.

Yeah the Family Owned and Operated churches are plentiful around here too. Thankfully the church I go to now is not that way. Of course it is a small church and only has 2 sunday school classes. I like small churches though and tend to enjoy the services better, because small churches can show you just how big God really is. It is much easier to feel the spirit and I believe to get everyone in agreement. I thank God he led me to Gateway!

[John81]

Yes, I prefer smaller churches too. I'm not sure really big churches can even operate biblically, but I suppose that's another thing altogether! :icon_mrgreen:

[revivedbygrace]

Yes, I prefer smaller churches too. I'm not sure really big churches can even operate biblically, but I suppose that's another thing altogether!

I agree with you there! My problem with the Mega Churches is there is no way a pastor can know all their names or even one personal thing about each member.
How can he then be responsible for the spiritual guidance of his congregation if he is not aware of who they are and what they need? He would run himself to
death just trying to visit the sick. Sure he has people to take care of all that for him but I can't remeber ever seeing a scripture on the qualifications of a
sub lay minister twice removed on his cousins, daddies, uncles side. (Just kidding a bit but I hope you see my point). To many people and needs fall through the cracks.
Just my humble opinion. Edited May 20, 2011 by revivedbygrace

[brosmith]

David DID dance before the Lord. Was he wrong for doing so? Just because Paul never danced doesn't mean its wrong in every instance. There have been good movies produce that are not evil in nature and believe it or not some even come close to glorifying God. I know we are to Flee the very appearance of evil. And I admitted in my last post that alot of movies and dancing is just that or I was trying to. Is it wrong for a husband to dance with his wife? If it is explain to me how it is wrong based on the scriptures you so freely shared. Dancing with your wife won't lead to adultery or fornication, she is your wife. How then does it make you less holy or less perfect. Please explain it to me without implying that I am blind and bound for hell.

Here are some things to consider in order to open your eyes (I never implied that you were bound for hell):

#1 - The Biblical usage of the word "dance" does not refer to any of the secular, religious, or cultural dances that exist today. It refers to a leap of joy or twirling about because of a happy spirit. Biblically speaking a "dance" is an overflowing of joy that causes the person to jump about or run around. A modern comparison would be when someone shouts "Amen", or waves their Bible in the air, or anything else that expresses joy of heart.

#2 - You asked the question - "Is it wrong for a husband to dance with his wife?" You then make the statement - "Dancing with your wife won't lead to adultery or fornication, she is your wife." This leads me to believe that you know that the modern idea of dancing is sensual in nature and leads to sexual thoughts. I have been married for 28 years and the only kind of "dancing" my wife and I ever do is in the bedroom behind closed doors (and those things are private and never discussed in an open forum). Hebrews 13:4 - "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

#3 - There are many good reasons for not going to a movie theater, however I can't think of one good reason to even visit the place (even out of curiousity). It is cheaper to rent or buy the movies and you can have full control over content if you play them at home. On top of that, you don't have to expose your family to the ungodly atmosphere that is found in the dens of iniquity called "movie theaters".

#4 - If you enjoy watching movies (and/or TV programs) that contain very violent scenes, profanity, and/or nudity without being convicted by the Holy Spirit then there is something wrong with your spiritual condition. I would not question your salvation but I would question your spirituality.

Sincerely,
Bro Steve Smith

[revivedbygrace]

Thank you (and Im sorry I said you implied i was going to hell) I wish you had replied to my first post in this manner instead of picking at my choice of word and ignoring the question I was trying to ask.
I say trying to ask because going back and reading it I didn't do a very good job of putting it forth. Sometimes I dont convey my thoughts well and it comes out a convoluted mess.
In the light of this response I would say the I pretty much agree with you and the original poster. Yes dancing can have a sensual connotation to it and most of the time it does.
I still dont believe though that dancing is inherently evil. I believe what the dance is depends on what is in the heart of the dancer. David was a man after God's own heart, therefore he went about dancing
before the Lord. I guess we will just have to disagree on this point.
I will give you the theater point on the basis of controling environment.
Yes I do believe teachers need to be help to a higher standard.
And for the record I do not enjoy watching movies (and/or TV programs) that contain very violent scenes, profanity, and/or nudity.
Again I appologize If I said anything wrong. I really don't want to argue just learn. Please be patient with me and I will try my best not to undermine the forum.

[brosmith]

Thank you (and Im sorry I said you implied i was going to hell) I wish you had replied to my first post in this manner instead of picking at my choice of word and ignoring the question I was trying to ask. ... Again I appologize If I said anything wrong. I really don't want to argue just learn. Please be patient with me and I will try my best not to undermine the forum.

I accept your apologies. I know my initial responses did not explain the issues and you are right, I should have replied in a better manner the first time around. It wasn't my intention to blow you out of the water (so to speak), I was trying to get you to think about what you said.

Sincerely,
Bro Steve Smith

[revivedbygrace]

I accept your apologies. I know my initial responses did not explain the issues and you are right, I should have replied in a better manner the first time around. It wasn't my intention to blow you out of the water (so to speak), I was trying to get you to think about what you said.

Sincerely,
Bro Steve Smith

Well you succeeded. LOL I will try to rethink my post before I post them from now on to make sure I am really saing what it is I think I am saying. Have a good night.

[JerryNumbers]

Sad, we are in a time when there be few churches that will put up with a conservative pastor that tries to keep the world out of the church. Most only want a form of godliness, and they want to decide on their own what the Jesus they chose to worship will be like. That is they want a Jesus that will let them enjoy the best He has to offer, and the best the world offers too.