Two Kingdoms?

[Seth Doty]

This referred to AD66, when the believing Jews took notice of the Lord's command and fled the city.

So you think the destruction of Jerusalem was "to comfort all that mourn", "to give unto them beauty for ashes", gave "the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness"? Doesn't seem very likely. I doubt even believing Jews that escaped destruction were exactly happy about the situation. Not to mention that interpretation meshes poorly with the verses right after the ones in question. The rest of the chapter is quite evidently dealing with the restoration of the Jewish people, not their destruction.

[Wilchbla]

Do you know how many preterists it takes to change a lightbulb?

None. It was already changed in 70 A.D.

Good one!

[Wilchbla]

Zech 6:13 is speaking of Christ. Christ is not nor can He ever be a priest under the Levitical Priesthood. He is of the tribe of Juday.

You really need to read the book of Hebrews. We have a better High Priest, priesthood, sacrifice, etc. Why would God ever want us to go back to the old system?

By the way, show me one verse which says that Christ will ever set foot on this earth again. Nothing in the Bible says He will. We Christians are going to meet Him in the air.

Yeah, I'll remember to read the book of Hebrews sometime. Good grief. :shootme:

[Covenanter]

That is not completely accurate as there are some cases where they are repeated as prophecy, yet as a general pattern it is true for the simple reason that the NT is for Christians and is thus is not directly concerned with the nation of Israel. Prophecy of the restoration of Israel is found primarily in the OT. Israel is not restored based on the promises in the NT, but as a fulfillment of Gods covenant with Abraham and the Jewish people.

You miss the first part of my post:

Of course the NT is for Christians - the Apostles preached Christ to the Jews first, & sought to persuade them to repent & Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Salvation is on an individual, not national basis, though the hope is always that many, even an overwhelming number, of the nation will be saved.

I do not know where you get the idea "that the NT is .... not directly concerned with the nation of Israel." Peter & Paul preached to the Jew first.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see [you], and to speak with [you]: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

The fact that the nation rejected her Messiah in no way justifies your assertion : "that the NT is .... not directly concerned with the nation of Israel." Unless of course you mean that the nation of Israel, by her rejection of her Messiah, rejected also the promises given to Abraham & became disqualified.




the question is not whether or not they are fulfilled in Christ, that is an area where there is generally agreement, the question is WHEN they are fulfilled in Christ.

Take what the angel said when he appeared to Mary:

"Luke 1:28-33 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Christ does not yet hold the throne of "his father David" nor is he "reigning" over the house of Jacob. They have currently rejected Christ and that part is still yet to be fulfilled prophecy while the part about Mary conceiving was for that time. Prophecy very often skips quite suddenly between his first and second coming.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,

For example:

I agree that prophecy does look on to perfect fulfilment, as the immediate prophecy shows a means to an end. Those blessings promised through Isaiah, & read in part by Jesus will only be perfectly fulfilled in the resurrection, not some future carnal dispensation.

[Brother Rick]

No. They used Christians with their clothes soaked in pitch during the great tribulation.

Rick, your "jokes" make no contribution to a serious discussion - especially as you totally reject the "time indicators" in Revelation that require an interpretation before AD 70.

What? You don't like my jokes? Oh no! I also don't appreciate the jab about what Christians suffered under Nero, as if I'm insensitive to that.

I reject your unscriptural interpretation of these "time indicators."

God was saying the Day of the Lord, Babylon being destroyed, and other Revelation events were "at hand" 600 years before Christ was even born! He's speaking of imminency, as in it could happen any moment, not immediacy as in it is guaranteed to happen right away.

Interpret Rev. 1:3 and your other "time indicators" in light of that.

Duet. 32:35, "To me belongs vengeance and recompense; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come on them make haste."

Is. 13:6, "Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty."

Jer. 51:33, "For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon [is] like a threshingfloor, [it is] time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come."

Joel 2:1, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;"

Zeph. 1:14, "The great day of the LORD [is] near, [it is] near, and hasteth greatly, [even] the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly." Edited April 18, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Brother Rick]

By the way, show me one verse which says that Christ will ever set foot on this earth again. Nothing in the Bible says He will. We Christians are going to meet Him in the air.

Zech. 14:4, "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

[dantheman2]

Zech. 14:4, "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

Well, once again...that is not speaking about Christ's second coming. My request is that you show me one verse which ACTUALLY says that Christ will ever set foot on this earth again.

[Brother Rick]

Well, once again...that is not speaking about Christ's second coming. My request is that you show me one verse which ACTUALLY says that Christ will ever set foot on this earth again.

Okay... I'll try again.

Acts 1:11, "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

He left physically, He's coming back physically.

[Covenanter]

Zec. 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
....
1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

We see that fulfilled at Pentecost:
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus quotes Zec. 13 as fulfilled when the disciples were scattered at his arrest.
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Verses 8 & 9 begin with "And" so must be a consequence of the smiting. Zec has been very concerned at corrupt shepherds & the LORD taking responsibility for the sheep. After Pentecost, Israel was very divided between believers & those who totally rejected their Messiah & persecuted believers. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad.

That persecution continued until Jesus Olivet warnings were apparent & the believers fled the city before its destruction. Those are the third part who enjoy the oft-repeated covenant relationship - I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

2 Cor. 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Continued

Zec. 14 continues without a break – chapters & verses are man made.

When we look at Jerusalem in the NT, we see that the city so loved in the Psalms is typical of the eternal, heavenly city. Paul contrasts the cities in Gal. 4, & in Heb. 11 we read :
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

The destruction of the earthly city leaves the eternal city as the Christian dwelling.

Thus Zechariah writes:
14:1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

The believing residue, the elect remnant, have a heavenly citizenship. They can never be cut off.
 
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Rome was used as the instrument of the Lord's judgement on the city, but was, of course, implicated in the crucifixion of Jesus, and the persecution of Christians. The empire would collapse & be overrun by surrounding nations. Habakkuk sees the same outcome when the Chaldeans were used to discipline Judah.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; .....
Jesus certainly stood on the mount of Olives when he pronounced the judgment on Jerusalem. That judgment was the outworking of the wrath of God against those that rejected him. He opened the way for the believers to escape the doomed city.

5 ... and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Micah warned of an earlier judgment in very similar terms: 1:1 .... concerning Samaria and Jerusalem. .... 3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
 4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
The “saints” (Heb quadowsh) word is variously translated: holy 65, Holy One 39, saint 12 & may mean holy angels. See Dan 8:13

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Living waters speaks of the Gospel flowing out from Jerusalem in the power of the Holy Spirit. No longer is the Gospel focus on Jerusalem, but on Christ the King over all the earth. 9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The plague is the plague of hell. Jerusalem is the new Jerusalem, the heavenly city. The vision moves on to the NH&NE when all will be HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD.

[Brother Rick]

500 years before the First Advent God says Christ is coming in "a little while."

Haggai 2:6-7, "For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7) And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts."

[Invicta]

Good one!

Actually, it was quite silly.

He could have said "Do you know how many futurists it takes to change a lightbulb? None,it never will happen. "

But we will not get into silly Jokes.

[dantheman2]

Okay... I'll try again.

Acts 1:11, "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

He left physically, He's coming back physically.

Yes, but it does not say that He will set foot on earth. Read 1 and 2 Thes and it is clear that we are going to meet Him in the air.

[Brother Rick]

Actually, it was quite silly.

He could have said "Do you know how many futurists it takes to change a lightbulb? None,it never will happen. "

But we will not get into silly Jokes.

I like silly jokes. I have to, I have three kids, five and under.

That was good one, Invicta.

Another one would be "How many futurists does it take to change a lightbulb?" "No man knoweth the day nor the hour."

[Brother Rick]

Yes, but it does not say that He will set foot on earth. Read 1 and 2 Thes and it is clear that we are going to meet Him in the air.

This one has Him sitting down and judging the nations "when the Son of man shall come." That hasn't happened yet.

Matthew 25:31-33, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

[Covenanter]

Rick:
I reject your unscriptural interpretation of these "time indicators."

God was saying the Day of the Lord, Babylon being destroyed, and other Revelation events were "at hand" 600 years before Christ was even born! He's speaking of imminency, as in it could happen any moment, not immediacy as in it is guaranteed to happen right away.

Interpret Rev. 1:3 and your other "time indicators" in light of that.

Duet. 32:35, "To me belongs vengeance and recompense; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come on them make haste."
See the warning that precedes Deu 32.
20For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
21And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
22Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.

Note the time indicator is the occasion of apostasy. When they turn from the LORD, the day of calamity will arrive.

Is. 13:6, "Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty."

Jer. 51:33, "For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon [is] like a threshingfloor, [it is] time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come."
The day of the LORD for Babylon was its overthrow by the Medes.
Isa. 13:17Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,...

Notice all the calamities prophesied in Isa 13, associated with Babylon's destruction over 500 years before Christ. The Revelation Babylon is Jerusalem.

Joel 2:1, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;"
The Jews were already suffering judgment from the plague of locusts. Urgent repentance was counselled.
1:14Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,
15Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
16Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?

There at hand was all around them!

Zeph. 1:14, "The great day of the LORD [is] near, [it is] near, and hasteth greatly, [even] the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly."
Zephaniah sees the imminent judgement of Judah by Babylon.

Your mistake is to see the day of the LORD in a technical sense as if it were always the day of judgment yet to come. It is always the day when the LORD acts according to his warnings. Certainly it is future, but there have been many days in Scripture of the day of the LORD coming in judgment.