A Crazy, Dangerous, Frightening, Good Idea.

[Crushmaster]

Taken from my Facebook:
"It's this. On a set day, a bunch of guys (I say 'guys' for a reason) go to Wal-Mart, or some other store, to buy something. As they go to the cash-register and attempt to purchase the item, they refuse to pay tax, due to what the money would partially be going to (specifically, abortion; Planned Parenthood).

Meanwhile, a guy behind him, who would act like they didn't know each other, would have a camera pen in his shirt pocket, recording video and audio (for YouTube).

It's dangerous, as security, police, etc. could be called. You might get thrown in jail, fined, whatever. But it would get the point across - we don't want to support MURDER.

Lots of issues, like solid evidence for sales-taxes going to abortions, would be necessary.

So, that's the basic idea. Prayers appreciated. I believe Michael Marcavage of Repent America would be willing to help me out. The Lord's Will be done.

God bless.

EDIT: Website domain name ideas: wwwDOTabortionmustdieDOTcom and wwwDOTkillabortionDOTcom."
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

[Soj]

Taken from my Facebook:
"It's this. On a set day, a bunch of guys (I say 'guys' for a reason) go to Wal-Mart, or some other store, to buy something. As they go to the cash-register and attempt to purchase the item, they refuse to pay tax, due to what the money would partially be going to (specifically, abortion; Planned Parenthood).

Meanwhile, a guy behind him, who would act like they didn't know each other, would have a camera pen in his shirt pocket, recording video and audio (for YouTube).

It's dangerous, as security, police, etc. could be called. You might get thrown in jail, fined, whatever. But it would get the point across - we don't want to support MURDER.

Lots of issues, like solid evidence for sales-taxes going to abortions, would be necessary.

So, that's the basic idea. Prayers appreciated. I believe Michael Marcavage of Repent America would be willing to help me out. The Lord's Will be done.

God bless.

EDIT: Website domain name ideas: wwwDOTabortionmustdieDOTcom and wwwDOTkillabortionDOTcom."
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

You're acting for a good cause brother, but going about it the wrong way. Rebellion will only get you into trouble, and what's the benefit of putting it on You Tube, to entertain people??

By all means stand up for what you think is wrong, but do it lawfully and please God while you're at it.

[John81]

While it's become popular among American Chirstians to believe "civil disobedience" is acceptable, even Christian, the biblical fact is that it's not. Disobedience in paying taxes is sin. Recall that Jesus said taxes should be paid to Rome even though Rome used their tax collections to fund sin across their empire. A Christians responsibility is to pay the tax, the responsibility for how those taxes are spent falls upon those in the government and they will be held accountable.

Another factor is that it would be wrong to stage such a situation. Using lies and deception in order to create a desired situation while committing an act of disobedience isn't pleasing to God.

Chrristians are taught in the New Testament that we are to busy ourselves spreading the Gospel and living so others see Christ in us. If our desire is to truly see God's will done in a nation we are commanded to pray for this, this takes dilligent prayer, fasting and prayer, and much time in the Word. At the same time, we must be working to expand God's kingdom by spreading the Gospel, seeing souls won to Christ.

One example of this from American history is the number of towns and counties across the land which became "dry" (alcohol became illegal), not by Christians forming political committees, not by Christians using sinful "civil disobedience" tactics, but by so many citizens, including local politicians, coming to Christ. You can read how this happened in many areas as Billy Sunday crossed the country preaching.

[Covenanter]

Staging an embarrassing situation for a shop assistant is not a good witness. Jesus' enemies repeatedly tried to stage embarrassing situations for him.

Why stop at abortion? War kills many children & 'innocent' non-combatants & creates hatred & enmity. We should be eager to pay taxes as much is used for medical care & care for the poor, elderly & chronically ill, who would otherwise suffer.

Our government is democratically elected, & there are democratic ways of making our opinions known, including speaking out, strikes, peaceful protests, civil disobedience, but above all preaching the Gospel of repentance.

Sadly, in this world, big business, banks, multinational corporations & warlords always win. 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (John 16) We ARE on the winning side. Hallelujah!

[Daniel Gladu]

This doesn't sound bad.

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

[Annie]

Gotta agree with the majority of posters here. The suggested course of action is not a good idea at all, IMO, for a number of reasons. (And, for what reason do you say "guys?")

If I (a known pro-life, Christian woman) were the cashier, I'd definitely disassociate myself with the customers trying to "make their point" in such an ill-contrived, ineffective way. I wouldn't want Christ's name paraded about and dragged through the mud in such a fashion.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Annie

[Crushmaster]

This or not, I will do something. Something shall be done. I will not play checkers while the house burns. While millions of children are murdered by bloodthirsty "doctors."

This has, or is, it nothing else, the seed.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Crushmaster

[John81]

This or not, I will do something. Something shall be done. I will not play checkers while the house burns. While millions of children are murdered by bloodthirsty "doctors."

This has, or is, it nothing else, the seed.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

Turn to God, turn to Scripture. Human efforts and actions, done on our own isn't glorfying to God and isn't a part of His will. God's ways are not our ways. We need to do everything God's way. Prayer and taking the Gospel to the lost will do far more than anything any of us can do on our own.

[Soj]

This or not, I will do something. Something shall be done. I will not play checkers while the house burns. While millions of children are murdered by bloodthirsty "doctors."

It's good that you hate this sin so much, but it's not your responsibility to remedy it, it's God's. We need to trust that God knows what He's doing in the overall scheme of things, He certainly hasn't given instructions to the body of Christ to try and reform this world and the evil in it, God will do that soon enough when He returns. In the meanwhile we need to be about our Father's business, and that is leading souls to Christ and living righteously and in obedience to the word of God, which includes being in subjection to the powers that be which are ordained of God (Romans 13:1).

No amount of Christian lobbying and civil disobedience will stop the wickedness that continues throughout this ungodly world, but by prayer and witnessing the gospel we might be able to help rescue a few from it.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

[Annie]

This or not, I will do something. Something shall be done. I will not play checkers while the house burns. While millions of children are murdered by bloodthirsty "doctors."

This has, or is, it nothing else, the seed.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

It is very frustrating to live in a world that's not our home, isn't it? A place where justice does not always prevail, where the innocent suffer, where children are homeless and neglected through no fault of their own, where poverty crushes people to dust, where babies die of AIDS, where society's most vulnerable members are abducted, raped, abused, exploited. Which of us does not cry out along with the Psalmist, "How long, Lord? How long will the wicked triumph?" He replies, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." Scripture assures us that justice will be served in That Day, when all murderers, liars, etc., will be thrown into the lake of fire.

We are not going to fix anything by engaging in antics such as you've described, Crushmaster. If anything, we become part of the problem--we add to the mayhem and disorder--when our tactics echo those of the world around us (deception, refusing to "render unto Caesar," behaving unseemly, etc.). Such behavior will not draw anyone to Christ or help to remedy any of the problems listed above. They'll only make Christianity stink in people's nostrils.

I do not advocate "playing checkers while the house burns, either. As Christians, we must be active as salt and light. The gospel is the only thing that can make a real difference in society. When we live our lives by the Book, we change things God's way, not ours.

[irishman]

Crush,
Kudos to you buddy. I want you to know that , I for one, admire your zeal, it seems to be lacking in Christianity today. I do not say that that you are wrong in doing something like that, these are drastic times, and may take drastic measures, but I do not know if I would do it myself either.

You see, it is partly my fault that abortion is so rampant today! I have never done anything about it, except spouted off on a Christian forum among peers...they call it "preaching to the choir" I believe. I do not agree with a lot of political involvement, I don't think it is our business to run what belongs to the world, like politics, but I do believe we should do something. i commend you for wanting to do something. Too long we have hidden behind prayer, saying that the Lord will work it out, while we sit on our backsides sipping tea and shaking our heads at the state of the country we have helped make. I do not believe in political rally's, or protest marches, but I can be a voice!

There is an old philosophical enigma that men have amused themselves with for years, and they suppose it has no real answer to it: They say if a tree falls to the ground way out in the forest where no one is around to hear it, does it really make sound? they speculate that sound is only in the ear, and not in the fall of the tree. It's another "chicken or the egg" type question. When I think of that, I remember John who was a "voice in the wilderness", where there were none to hear, but he still had to be a voice. i am glad that you desire to do something even if it is not the wisest thing, it is more than many of us do. And who knows, maybe someone is listening that we are not aware of. It takes many parts to make a body, as you know, and something like that which you speak of in your post may be just the thing we need to wake us up! I criticize you not in your "dangerous" post.

In fact, I have not voiced one word against Mr. Cooper either when he was coming up with those fantastic ideas, especially if he practiced what he preached! I did not criticize him while many who do nothing but run their mouths, criticized his methods, and called him everything under the sun, short of cursing of course (that made it more respectable!) remember Christs words that (and I do jot claim it to be a direct quote) that they which are not against us are for us. I know that I have had to look within myself, and I believe I will voice my opinion to my state representatives on the abortion issue--something which I have never done before although I spoke a lot against it. I hope others will do the same--not as some big political machine, but as a Christian first, and then a citizen of the U.S., and as an individual. if we could flood the regime with letters, and be a voice, I believe the Lord would turn the hearts of those who really care about their country and the citizens (as well as the votes!). I will not threaten them, and I will be careful to check my spelling, etc, lest they cast it aside before it is even read. i wonder what we could do if we we were to get everyone we could to do the same--again, not as a political movement or body, but as one Christian being a voice in this wilderness. One here, and one there, and one from everywhere taking a stand and speaking out in a polite and respectable manner.may do a lot more than a group who hashes over the shame of abortion on a Christian forum, while remaining in his or her comfort zone.

Those are my thoughts, for what they are worth, but thank you for the original post, and for wanting to be a voice. Your post may not be "the" way, but it is "a" way, which is better than "no" way. Oh, and don't leave out the prayer, we cannot do anything without the Lord.

Edited January 29, 2011 by irishman

[Crushmaster]

Crush,
Kudos to you buddy. I want you to know that , I for one, admire your zeal, it seems to be lacking in Christianity today. I do not say that that you are wrong in doing something like that, these are drastic times, and may take drastic measures, but I do not know if I would do it myself either.

You see, it is partly my fault that abortion is so rampant today! I have never done anything about it, except spouted off on a Christian forum among peers...they call it "preaching to the choir" I believe. I do not agree with a lot of political involvement, I don't think it is our business to run what belongs to the world, like politics, but I do believe we should do something. i commend you for wanting to do something. Too long we have hidden behind prayer, saying that the Lord will work it out, while we sit on our backsides sipping tea and shaking our heads at the state of the country we have helped make. I do not believe in political rally's, or protest marches, but I can be a voice!

There is an old philosophical enigma that men have amused themselves with for years, and they suppose it has no real answer to it: They say if a tree falls to the ground way out in the forest where no one is around to hear it, does it really make sound? they speculate that sound is only in the ear, and not in the fall of the tree. It's another "chicken or the egg" type question. When I think of that, I remember John who was a "voice in the wilderness", where there were none to hear, but he still had to be a voice. i am glad that you desire to do something even if it is not the wisest thing, it is more than many of us do. And who knows, maybe someone is listening that we are not aware of. It takes many parts to make a body, as you know, and something like that which you speak of in your post may be just the thing we need to wake us up! I criticize you not in your "dangerous" post.

In fact, I have not voiced one word against Mr. Cooper either when he was coming up with those fantastic ideas, especially if he practiced what he preached! I did not criticize him while many who do nothing but run their mouths, criticized his methods, and called him everything under the sun, short of cursing of course (that made it more respectable!) remember Christs words that (and I do jot claim it to be a direct quote) that they which are not against us are for us. I know that I have had to look within myself, and I believe I will voice my opinion to my state representatives on the abortion issue--something which I have never done before although I spoke a lot against it. I hope others will do the same--not as some big political machine, but as a Christian first, and then a citizen of the U.S., and as an individual. if we could flood the regime with letters, and be a voice, I believe the Lord would turn the hearts of those who really care about their country and the citizens (as well as the votes!). I will not threaten them, and I will be careful to check my spelling, etc, lest they cast it aside before it is even read. i wonder what we could do if we we were to get everyone we could to do the same--again, not as a political movement or body, but as one Christian being a voice in this wilderness. One here, and one there, and one from everywhere taking a stand and speaking out in a polite and respectable manner.may do a lot more than a group who hashes over the shame of abortion on a Christian forum, while remaining in his or her comfort zone.

Those are my thoughts, for what they are worth, but thank you for the original post, and for wanting to be a voice. Your post may not be "the" way, but it is "a" way, which is better than "no" way. Oh, and don't leave out the prayer, we cannot do anything without the Lord.

Thanks for the comment, brother. If nothing else, this idea is a seed. We need prayer, but we need to DO SOMETHING!

[John81]

Thanks for the comment, brother. If nothing else, this idea is a seed. We need prayer, but we need to DO SOMETHING!

Indeed, we do need to do something, but what we need to do is obey the Word of God in such matters, not try to think up other ways of doing things. Search the Scriptures, the answer is there.

Prayer, according to Scripture, is the first and most important step. From Scripture we learn if we are truly fervent regarding a matter we will spend much time in fasting and prayer, seeking the Lord's working in the matter and listening to His Spirit.

We help support a nearby group which puts up pro-life billboards, puts forth literature, gives talks in schools, to groups, at public gatherings, etc., gets the pro-life message out on local radio and TV, has established a home for women seeking to make a change in their lives, provides assistance to any woman who wants to carry their baby to delivery, provides help for those women who have their babies and keep them, provides assistance in placing babies up for adoption for those wome who can't or don't want to keep their babies, provides family counseling (biblical), offers several classes on everything from knowing Jesus to care of babies. Many other pro-life things they do as well, all in the name of Jesus in accord with His Word. Through this group many women have come to see the truth of abortion (it's murder), many babies have been born who otherwise would have been killed, many women have come to Christ, etc.

This group covers an area which includes parts of three states. Through their efforts, done in a Christlike manner, many in the region have come to Christ, either directly or indirectly, and by their consistent Christlike approaches Chirst is honoured, babies are saved, women, their husbands, children, even entire families are being born again in Christ, God's kingdom is being expanded.

The ways of man are not the ways of God. Following God requires obedience, patience, faith and trust.

I know where you are coming from as early in my Christian walk I wanted to be "active" in fighting abortion but thankfully my heart was still open to the Lord's speaking and He turned me to His way and away from unfruitful human "action".

Recall those in Scripture who tried to "help" God by doing things in their own way and in their own time. This never went well.

As Jerry so often rightly points out, trust and obey for there is no other way. Zeal is wonderful if we allow Christ to be Lord of our zeal. Zeal ungoverned by Christ leads to chaos.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16

Only in Christ, as obeying His Word, can we do this. Outside of that our "good works" are as filthy rags.

[Anon]

Even Jesus supported the paying of taxes and obedience to government. And the government during that time was about as perverse as they come!

[irishman]

john81,
most of that is basic stuff, but you, nor anyone else knows whether the Lord moves in that way once-in-a-while or not. Do you think Pilate would have cared what happened if it were not for the uproar? And what about John the Baptist, I am sure that he was criticized and ostracized much the same way. God does whatever pleases Him, and glorifies His name.

As for taxes, I pay them because its the law, not because I want to; talk about compelled giving...

Edited January 29, 2011 by irishman