95 Theses Against Dispensationalism

[Wilchbla]

"Jerusalem" & the underlying doctrine is POSTmil, not amil. Once the power of the Papacy was broken, after 1260 years, by the Reformation, the Reformers saw the the millennium being spread by the Gospel.

They believed that the Second Coming would occur once the gospel was spread thoroughout the earth but they still taught that the church itself was the kingdom. Just as the papists do.

wikipedia:

Amillennialism was the dominant view of the Protestant Reformers. The Lutheran Church formally rejected chiliasm in the The Augsburg Confession— “Art. XVII., condemns the Anabaptists and others ’who now scatter Jewish opinions that, before the resurrection of the dead, the godly shall occupy the kingdom of the world, the wicked being everywhere suppressed.’"[12] Likewise, the Swiss Reformer, Heinrich Bullinger wrote up the Second Helvetic Confession which reads "We also reject the Jewish dream of a millennium, or golden age on earth, before the last judgment."[13] John Calvin wrote in Institutes that chiliasm is a "fiction" that is "too childish either to need or to be worth a refutation." He interpreted the thousand year period of Revelation 20 non-literally, applying it to the "various disturbances that awaited the church, while still toiling on earth."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism

[Covenanter]

This article on Partial Preterism is a fair summary of my understanding. But don't hold me to every word.

[Covenanter]

Doesn't matter. Most British people (at least those who care about the issue) do take the AM stance. The is the historic view that has been propagated for centuries among the British people by it's religious leaders and would account for a lot of the European wars.

Have you ANY basis for that assertion?

The Jew is cursed.

Have you ANY basis for that assertion?

The RCs & Lutherans held/hold that view & showed it by persecution. England has been a refuge for Jews for centuries.

Speaking for myself - God's dealings with Israel as an ethnic nation ended finally in AD 70. The Gospel united Jew & Gentile, so that we became one people of God in Christ, so that the holy nation of believers has inherited the promises to Abraham. True Jews are believers in Christ, with circumcision & other aspects of the old covenant being superceded. (Rom. 2, Eph. 2, Heb. 8, 1 Peter 2, etc)

The church (of believers NOT organisation) now comprises one people of God under the new covenant in the blood of Jesus. Jews are saved when they believe in Christ. (Rom. 11)


The kingdom of God has passed from Israel to the church.
The church is the kingdom of heaven on earth.

The kingdom of God belongs to Christ, who has all power in heaven & in earth & comprises all believers. True Israel was only ever those who believed. (Circumcision of the heart.)

The Monarchy is its civil head (and religious to a certain extant i.e. the Divine Right of Kings).

That assertion is an embarrassment to most Anglicans (including evangelicals.) They assert that the monarch is "supreme governor" but that Christ himself is the head of the church.

We would assert with Peter that anywhere on earth believers are strangers and pilgrims.

The idea of ethnic Israel being separated out again as an earthly nation is completely foreign to the NT writers.

Note the wonderful promise to Israel confirmed to the church:

Exd 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

I'll just add - Biblical Preterism has no place whatsoever for persecution of Jews, Muslims, Palestinians, Afro-Americans, Aboriginies, or any racial or religious group. We have a Gospel for all.
Edited December 7, 2010 by Covenanter

[John81]

One of the most difficult aspects for folks trying to study this out is the lack of objective material. Rather than being a book or booklet which presents both views as is, and a section where each side presents it's views against the other followed by a section where each sides presents a defense to those charges, where folks can look these over, compare all with Scripture and in pray come to a conclusion; the available material is typically one side presenting their view and if the other view is mentioned, it's simply attacked.

[Covenanter]

One of the most difficult aspects for folks trying to study this out is the lack of objective material. Rather than being a book or booklet which presents both views as is, and a section where each side presents it's views against the other followed by a section where each sides presents a defense to those charges, where folks can look these over, compare all with Scripture and in pray come to a conclusion; the available material is typically one side presenting their view and if the other view is mentioned, it's simply attacked.

I have endeavoured to show from Scripture the early date of Revelation, before the destruction, particularly ch 11 refering to the temple & Jerusalem. The main argument for a late date is not Scripture, but an ambiguous reference by Irenaeus in a Gk letter written 100 years after the destruction & known only in a Latin translation. I rely on the Bible.

I have also shown that Jesus' Olivet prophecy alludes in its terminology to the destruction of Babylon. (See Isaiah 13.) The preamble to Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 clearly refer to the AD 70 destruction. The Jerusalem Christians obviously took it that way.

The disps do not argue Biblically, but use Scripture to build an "end times" scenario that is yet future. They do not treat OT prophecy in the way the NT writers do, nor do they consider the letter to the Hebrews.

That monstrous c/p from David Cloud dismisses the amil position in a short paragraph, & gives a very detailed argument for the premil position. He claims to deal with Scripture literally, but e.g he takes Rev. 2 & 3 as sequential prophecy from Pentecost to the end times, but NOT as they clearly are - a set of letters to 7 literal churches, with application principles to all readers.

[Brother Rick]

Your argument for an early dating of Revelation, based upon Jesus saying He was coming back soon in Revelation 1:3 is inconsistent. He also said the events of the New Heaven and the New Earth and the Great White Throne Judgment were coming soon several times in Revelation 22. They haven't happened yet, Jesus hasn't come back yet, and He hasn't taken the throne of his glory (Matthew 25) yet.

I'm sure there are several different reasons why Jesus said He was coming back soon, but one thing for sure it wasn't because He was only coming back spiritually in 70 A.D. What would the point of that be when He sent us the Comforter? Besides, the angels told the disciples that when He came back the second time He's do it the same way He went up - bodily and visible. In reference to the Tribulation period, which you assign to 70 A.D., the Jew was told to look up for his redemption draweth nigh. Was that spiritual too? Just like they didn't really SEE Jesus returning in the clouds in 70 A.D. as well?

Luke 21:27-28, "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Revelation 22:

1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8) And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20) He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Invicta]

Your argument for an early dating of Revelation, based upon Jesus saying He was coming back soon in Revelation 1:3 is inconsistent. He also said the events of the New Heaven and the New Earth and the Great White Throne Judgment were coming soon several times in Revelation 22. They haven't happened yet, Jesus hasn't come back yet, and He hasn't taken the throne of his glory (Matthew 25) yet.

I'm sure there are several different reasons why Jesus said He was coming back soon, but one thing for sure it wasn't because He was only coming back spiritually in 70 A.D. What would the point of that be when He sent us the Comforter? Besides, the angels told the disciples that when He came back the second time He's do it the same way He went up - bodily and visible. In reference to the Tribulation period, which you assign to 70 A.D., the Jew was told to look up for his redemption draweth nigh. Was that spiritual too? Just like they didn't really SEE Jesus returning in the clouds in 70 A.D. as well?

Luke 21:27-28, "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Revelation 22:

1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4) And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8) And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20) He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Thanks for posting that Rick, although I am not sure in what way that is meant to Challenge Covenanter.

A question, though. Verse 15. What are dogs? Literal dogs, or human dogs? Edited December 7, 2010 by Invicta

[Brother Rick]

Oh brother, did you not read the first sentence of my post? I'll explain it further.

THERE IS NO BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR DATING THE BOOK OF REVELATION BEFORE 70 A.D.

If you use Revelation 1:3, then you need to explain why the NH & NH haven't happened yet as well as the Great White Throne Judgment, as demonstrated in post 96.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

I have endeavoured to show from Scripture the early date of Revelation, before the destruction, particularly ch 11 refering to the temple & Jerusalem. The main argument for a late date is not Scripture, but an ambiguous reference by Irenaeus in a Gk letter written 100 years after the destruction & known only in a Latin translation. I rely on the Bible.

I have also shown that Jesus' Olivet prophecy alludes in its terminology to the destruction of Babylon. (See Isaiah 13.) The preamble to Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 clearly refer to the AD 70 destruction. The Jerusalem Christians obviously took it that way.

The disps do not argue Biblically, but use Scripture to build an "end times" scenario that is yet future. They do not treat OT prophecy in the way the NT writers do, nor do they consider the letter to the Hebrews.

That monstrous c/p from David Cloud dismisses the amil position in a short paragraph, & gives a very detailed argument for the premil position. He claims to deal with Scripture literally, but e.g he takes Rev. 2 & 3 as sequential prophecy from Pentecost to the end times, but NOT as they clearly are - a set of letters to 7 literal churches, with application principles to all readers.

I absolutely appreciate the attempts here to put forth clear, biblical reasoning for the positions held. While I wasn't clear, my meaning was in regards to books and such put forth which don't present a clear or fair presentation of the various positions. Instead, even if they proclaim to be taking a balanced look at the topic, tend to dismiss the other view simply and quickly while basically just presenting their position. That's not very helpful.

[Brother Rick]

I absolutely appreciate the attempts here to put forth clear, biblical reasoning for the positions held. While I wasn't clear, my meaning was in regards to books and such put forth which don't present a clear or fair presentation of the various positions. Instead, even if they proclaim to be taking a balanced look at the topic, tend to dismiss the other view simply and quickly while basically just presenting their position. That's not very helpful.

Depends on what the author is trying to accomplish in the book. If he's trying to build upon an already established system of interpretation, regardless of what it is, there's no need to spend anywhere from 30 to 100 pages rehashing and re-proving that position all over again.

My book assumes a premillennial and dispensational stance; it is a harmony of the four accounts of the Second Coming in Revelation from a futurist's standpoint, and that's the clearly stated goal in the introduction and the first few pages of the book.

On the flip side, THIS BOOK (click link) claims to be an analysis of the four interpretations of Revelation, and it clearly states itself as such.

[John81]

Depends on what the author is trying to accomplish in the book. If he's trying to build upon an already established system of interpretation, regardless of what it is, there's no need to spend anywhere from 30 to 100 pages rehashing and re-proving that position all over again.

My book assumes a premillennial and dispensational stance; it is a harmony of the four accounts of the Second Coming in Revelation from a futurist's standpoint, and that's the clearly stated goal in the introduction and the first few pages of the book.

On the flip side, THIS BOOK (click link) claims to be an analysis of the four interpretations of Revelation, and it clearly states itself as such.

Agreed, and that's fine. What I'm talking about is those books and articles which claim to compare one or more views in showing why their view is right. Then these books or articles actually only present a small and most often biased statement about the other view and then proceed to discuss their view and take shots at the other view without consideration for the other views arguments and how they may or may not be refuted.

A book that's simply taking a specific position shouldn't be expected to enter the debate or apologetics realm unless that is a part of the authors aim.

[Covenanter]

Your argument for an early dating of Revelation, based upon Jesus saying He was coming back soon in Revelation 1:3 is inconsistent.

Inconsistent? Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand. That is a reference to the events prophesied, not of Jesus second coming for resurrection & judgement. Why do you NOT comment on Rev. 11 & its reference to the temple & the destruction?

Jesus spoke of the destruction as a "coming." Luk 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard [it], they said, God forbid.


He also said the events of the New Heaven and the New Earth and the Great White Throne Judgment were coming soon several times in Revelation 22. They haven't happened yet, Jesus hasn't come back yet, and He hasn't taken the throne of his glory (Matthew 25) yet.

No. Read your own quotation carefully - 6) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

There is a difference in terminology: the things which must shortly be done ..... Behold, I come quickly. "Shortly" does not allow for a 2,000 year delay. "Quickly" describes the suddenness of his coming, without further warning.


I'm sure there are several different reasons why Jesus said He was coming back soon, but one thing for sure it wasn't because He was only coming back spiritually in 70 A.D.

He didn't say "soon" he said "quickly." Have I ever suggested "only?"

What would the point of that be when He sent us the Comforter? Besides, the angels told the disciples that when He came back the second time He's do it the same way He went up - bodily and visible.

They told the disciples & of course all believers will see him in glory. Unbelievers will see him at the judgement. That does not preclude his prophesied coming to judge the "husbandmen."

In reference to the Tribulation period, which you assign to 70 A.D., the Jew was told to look up for his redemption draweth nigh. Was that spiritual too? No. The Jerusalem believers were told that - "redemption" in that sense would be deliverance. Read Luke 21:20ff carefully. Just like they didn't really SEE Jesus returning in the clouds in 70 A.D. as well? Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Luke 21:27-28, "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

The things listed by Jesus were certainly beginning BEFORE AD 70. In the OT the presence of the LORD was by a pillar of cloud or fire. Note:
Exd 40:34 ¶ Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.


21) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Covenanter

[Brother Rick]

Revelation 22:12, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

That is a direct reference to the Great White Throne Judgment, which preceeds the New Heavens and New Earth - it hasn't happened yet.

Revelation 22:10, "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

That is a direct reference to all of the prophecy in Revelation, and the immediate context of Revelation 22 is the New Heavens and New Earth. We both agree that that certainly hasn't happened yet, even though Jesus said the time was at hand.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

Revelation 22:12, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

That is a direct reference to the Great White Throne Judgment, which preceeds the New Heavens and New Earth - it hasn't happened yet.

Second coming for resurrection,judgement & NH&NE. Yet future, agreed.


Revelation 22:10, "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

That is a direct reference to all of the prophecy in Revelation, Agreed. and the immediate context of Revelation 22 is the New Heavens and New Earth. We both agree that that certainly hasn't happened yet, even though Jesus said the time was at hand.
That doesn't follow at all. Rev. 22 is "closing instructions" to the first C reader & of course all with an ear to hear- with a Gospel call that echoes the words of our Lord.

Jhn 7:37 ¶ In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

[Covenanter]

Some people are set in believing a certain way and can't be won over with any argument. I would suggest reading an updated version of the book Dispensationalism by Charles Ryrie. Also, even though I don't agree with all of his theology you can find stuff online by John MacArthur who is a dispensationalist. It really boils down to how literal you are willing to take the Old Testament promises and if you think Israel is now the church.

I have carefully considered the disp arguments, & shown from Scripture how they should be understood. My arguments are often MORE literal than the disps - e.g. regarding 2 Thes 2 & Rev. 11 which require a fulfilment while the temple was standing, & 1-3 & 22 which require attention by the first readers.

I don't want to have the last word. I hope to see an actual response to my posts, before more questions.