95 Theses Against Dispensationalism

[John81]

John..

There are some really good articles on Dispensaionalism and Covenant Theology on the Middletown Bible Church website.

Here is a link to an article (which is actually a group of articles) which explains the differences between Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology:

Dispensationalism

Thank you Linda! This is one of those things I've encountered over the years but never really studied out because there never seemed a reason to.

[John81]

From an overview I see this issue encompasses much more than simply how one divides the Bible/times. I'll have to read more in-depth later.

[Covenanter]

John..

There are some really good articles on Dispensaionalism and Covenant Theology on the Middletown Bible Church website.

Here is a link to an article (which is actually a group of articles) which explains the differences between Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology:

Dispensationalism

It is not intended to "explain the differences" but to refute reformed/covenant theology.

We believe the Church is a distinct body of believers which was not present on earth during the Old Testament period and which was not the subject of Old Testament prophecy (Eph. 3:1–9; Col. 1:25–27).

Act 7:37 ¶ This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness...

Clearly Stephen was inspired to identify the people of Israel as the church.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The unity of redeemed Jew & redeemed uncircumcised gentile was not explicitly revealed in the OT, but is declared to be God's eternal purpose. Now find a Scripture that tells us that God's eternal purpose is to separate redeemed Jew & Gentile again for a millennium, before uniting them again in the NH&NE.

Try reading the Bible without Scofield notes - or the teaching by those influenced by him in college.

[Brother Rick]

Are all Dispensationalists pre-mil Rapture believers who support Israel/Jews?

No for sure on the first one and I think no on the second one.

EDIT: I thought you said "pre-TRIB" - my mistake. Every dispensationalist I've ever run into or read believes in a rapture at some point.

What does Covenant Theology teach as the next biblical thing to happen?

I'm not sure, but I think it's the Second Advent with the New Heavens and the New Earth. No Tribulation period (happened in 70 A.D.) or Millennium (we're in it now, except for the good parts which don't apply now, they apply under the NH & NE) as dispensationalists know it to be.

Did I get that right, Covenanter? :) Edited December 1, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

Are all Dispensationalists pre-mil Rapture believers who support Israel/Jews?
Don't know, but I get that impression.

What does Coventant Theology teach as the next biblical thing to happen?

The second coming for resurrection & judgement, & to bring about the NH&NE.

Historical amils (I think the majority of CTs) see the prophecies of Revelation as occurring throughout the present millennium/Gospel age, culminating in worldwide rebellion/apostasy. (2 Thes. 2) Some see an end-time revival among the Jews. They see some of the Mat. 24 predictions as relating the time of the second coming.

My position - preterist amil - see a prophecy focus on AD 70. That does not preclude events/disasters/judgements that can be seen in NT prophecy such as the rise of the papacy, Islam, widespread apostasy, persecution, etc. The have happened & will happen. We learn how to live through such conditions - we were told to expect tribulation in the world.

Down the ages, many events have been considered warnings of the imminent end, including the rise of Islam, the black death, world wars, the return of Jews to the Land, the year 1000, the year 2000, nuclear war, climate change. None have been proved right, though Chicken-Licken only has to be right once.....

We should all be living according to our Lord's admonition:

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[Brother Rick]

None have been proved right, though Chicken-Licken only has to be right once.....

Don't you mean Chicken Little?

Of course, if you are actually referring to licking fried chicken, I, as an Independent Baptist, would agree whole heartedly that licking chicken is good for all saints regardless of the views on eschatology.

[John81]

The second coming for resurrection & judgement, & to bring about the NH&NE.

Historical amils (I think the majority of CTs) see the prophecies of Revelation as occurring throughout the present millennium/Gospel age, culminating in worldwide rebellion/apostasy. (2 Thes. 2) Some see an end-time revival among the Jews. They see some of the Mat. 24 predictions as relating the time of the second coming.

My position - preterist amil - see a prophecy focus on AD 70. That does not preclude events/disasters/judgements that can be seen in NT prophecy such as the rise of the papacy, Islam, widespread apostasy, persecution, etc. The have happened & will happen. We learn how to live through such conditions - we were told to expect tribulation in the world.

Down the ages, many events have been considered warnings of the imminent end, including the rise of Islam, the black death, world wars, the return of Jews to the Land, the year 1000, the year 2000, nuclear war, climate change. None have been proved right, though Chicken-Licken only has to be right once.....

We should all be living according to our Lord's admonition:

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

In Covenant Theology the millenium and Gospel age are one and the same? Why would it be called a millenium if it lasts more than a thousand years?

I need to refresh my memory on the amill position. Do you happen to have a link to something that makes this easier than having to read through pages?

[Brother Rick]

This is my understanding of the three:

Premillennialism: The 1,000 years in Revelation 20 are literal 1,000 years of Christ's reign on Earth, and Jesus Christ returns before this occurs to set up a literal, physical reign on Earth. The goal is to win souls to Christ in anticipation of His eminent return, and the understanding remains that this age will end in apostasy.

Amillennialism: The 1,000 years are symbolic of Christ ruling spiritually, and are not a literal 1,000 years. There is no golden age of Christ directly ruling on the Earth in the affairs of nations and peoples physically, other than the New Heavens and New Earth which follows the current age. The goal is to win souls to Christ in anticipation of His eminent return, and the understanding remains that this age will end in apostasy.

Postmillennialism: The 1,000 years could be symbolic, or a literal 1,000 years. Either way, however, these years of peace and harmony are brought upon the Earth by the spiritual kingdom of Christ growing and stomping out all evil and opposition. Once mankind has achieved this, Jesus Christ may or may not return. This is the belief system of the Roman Catholic Church, having forgotten that our weapons are not carnal; they have historically done everything they can to murder and pillage their way to total world domination, all for the good of "Holy Mother Church" and in the interests of "spreading the kingdom of Heaven". Mankind will slowly progress and become better, no apostasy.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

This is my understanding of the three:

Premillennialism: The 1,000 years in Revelation 20 are literal 1,000 years of Christ's reign on Earth, and Jesus Christ returns before this occurs to set up a literal, physical reign on Earth. The goal is to win souls to Christ in anticipation of His eminent return, and the understanding remains that this age will end in apostasy.

Amillennialism: The 1,000 years are symbolic of Christ ruling spiritually, and are not a literal 1,000 years. There is no golden age of Christ directly ruling on the Earth in the affairs of nations and peoples physically, other than the New Heavens and New Earth which follows the current age. The goal is to win souls to Christ in anticipation of His eminent return, and the understanding remains that this age will end in apostasy.

Postmillennialism: The 1,000 years could be symbolic, or a literal 1,000 years. Either way, however, these years of peace and harmony are brought upon the Earth by the spiritual kingdom of Christ growing and stomping out all evil and opposition. Once mankind has achieved this, Jesus Christ may or may not return. This is the belief system of the Roman Catholic Church, having forgotten that our weapons are not carnal; they have historically done everything they can to murder and pillage their way to total world domination, all for the good of "Holy Mother Church" and in the interests of "spreading the kingdom of Heaven". Mankind will slowly progress and become better, no apostasy.

Okay. This is basically what I remember but it's been awhile so I wanted to check my recall. When I used to study a lot of history I encountered much regarding the view of Christians establishing utopia on earth. This was a major teaching among those who pushed so hard in early American history for immediate (with no plan or forethought) abolition of slavery and later for a virtual genocidal war against the Southern States. They believed this was necessary so they could then have an America on the brink of perfection where they could then lead the country into utopia with the hopes of bringing about the return of Christ.

In any event, I need to read up more on the idea that much of Revelation occured in or around AD 70 as amills teach. I've read some on the topic, but most was written by those who were pre-mils and therefore their approach was hardly without bias.

[Brother Rick]

In any event, I need to read up more on the idea that much of Revelation occured in or around AD 70 as amills teach. I've read some on the topic, but most was written by those who were pre-mils and therefore their approach was hardly without bias.

I'm sure it would make interesting reading.

Just remember history, and what Jesus said about the Tribulation...

Matthew 24:21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Edited December 1, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

I'm sure it would make interesting reading.

Just remember history, and what Jesus said about the Tribulation...

Matthew 24:21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Some say this verse covers a 7 year tribulation; some say it covers a 3 1/2 year tribulation, some say this is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews and all they would go (have went) through, some say it covers more than one time or event...etc.

But yeah, I get what you are trying to say here Rick. :th_tiphat:

[anime4christ]

This is my understanding of the three:

Premillennialism: The 1,000 years in Revelation 20 are literal 1,000 years of Christ's reign on Earth, and Jesus Christ returns before this occurs to set up a literal, physical reign on Earth. The goal is to win souls to Christ in anticipation of His eminent return, and the understanding remains that this age will end in apostasy.

Amillennialism: The 1,000 years are symbolic of Christ ruling spiritually, and are not a literal 1,000 years. There is no golden age of Christ directly ruling on the Earth in the affairs of nations and peoples physically, other than the New Heavens and New Earth which follows the current age. The goal is to win souls to Christ in anticipation of His eminent return, and the understanding remains that this age will end in apostasy.

Postmillennialism: The 1,000 years could be symbolic, or a literal 1,000 years. Either way, however, these years of peace and harmony are brought upon the Earth by the spiritual kingdom of Christ growing and stomping out all evil and opposition. Once mankind has achieved this, Jesus Christ may or may not return. This is the belief system of the Roman Catholic Church, having forgotten that our weapons are not carnal; they have historically done everything they can to murder and pillage their way to total world domination, all for the good of "Holy Mother Church" and in the interests of "spreading the kingdom of Heaven". Mankind will slowly progress and become better, no apostasy.

I've decided to take a break from this topic for a while because I got sick and have been rather busy lately, but I have been reading the replies. However, I must say that this is a rather unfair and biased presentation of the three views. While it is true that many in each position hold these beliefs, there is quite a lot of variation in all three positions. Eg. There are optimistic and pessimistic premillennialists and there are many who are in between amillennialism and postmillennialism. Also, not all postmillennialists are as hostile as the Roman Catholic church.

[Pastor Matt]

They'll ignore it. They lock their threads when they can't answer.

Obviously you are talking about folks like me. Can you show me where I have done this? A PM would be fine so the thread does not get hijacked.

[Brother Rick]

Some say this verse covers a 7 year tribulation; some say it covers a 3 1/2 year tribulation, some say this is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews and all they would go (have went) through, some say it covers more than one time or event...etc.

But yeah, I get what you are trying to say here Rick.

The length of the time period is irrelevant to the point, the point is Jesus claimed that whatever it was that He was describing and labeled as "great tribulation" was so terrible it's never happened before and will never happen again.

[Brother Rick]

I've decided to take a break from this topic for a while because I got sick and have been rather busy lately, but I have been reading the replies. However, I must say that this is a rather unfair and biased presentation of the three views. While it is true that many in each position hold these beliefs, there is quite a lot of variation in all three positions. Eg. There are optimistic and pessimistic premillennialists and there are many who are in between amillennialism and postmillennialism. Also, not all postmillennialists are as hostile as the Roman Catholic church.

I'm glad you're feeling better, brother.

I never claimed to present the "be-all-end-all" of the three viewpoints, of course there is variation. I also never claimed that all postmillennialists were Roman Catholic.

As far as bias goes, yes, I did mention that the RCC holds the view of post-mill, because it is very significant that it is that viewpoint combined with a carnal lust for power that led to their actions historically. If someone wants to be post-mill they should at least know they keep company with the most murderous organization that ever existed, doncha think?

If I reeeeeeeeeally wanted to demonstrate bias, I would have pointed out that the greatest soul winners of the last two hundred years (Spurgeon, Moody, Torrey, Chapman, Billy Sunday, and even Billy Graham [yes, I know he apostatized]) were all premillennial. I'd rather keep company with soul-winners than murderers.

Of course, I would only say THAT if I was trying to sound biased. :) :)