Is this really church?

[JerryNumbers]

I'm not sure I understand, what is it that you think I disagree with?

Regardless, John's baptism had nothing to do with ours. His baptism was to manifest Christ to Israel, once they had repented of their sins and were ready to accept their Messiah. Our baptism is for people who have already trusted Christ as Saviour. The important thing to remember is that a lot of the people that John baptized hadn't even seen Jesus yet, let alone trust Him, furthermore Christ hadn't died on the cross yet.

Acts 19:2-4, "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

You stated this.
"Salvation is of faith, discipleship is of works. Perhaps some Christians want to make sure the sinner will make a good disciple before they're even saved? I don't agree with that."

It seems that you're saying, if a pastor was to think, 'Someone is not showing meet for repentance,' and refused to accept that they're saved, you would 100% disagree with him. Even though we have an example of John the Baptist doing that very thing.

Or perhaps I misunderstand you.

That siad, I have no idea what Acts 19:2-4 has to do with the example of John the Baptist.

[Brother Rick]

You stated this.
"Salvation is of faith, discipleship is of works. Perhaps some Christians want to make sure the sinner will make a good disciple before they're even saved? I don't agree with that."

It seems that you're saying, if a pastor was to think, 'Someone is not showing meet for repentance,' and refused to accept that they're saved, you would 100% disagree with him. Even though we have an example of John the Baptist doing that very thing.

Or perhaps I misunderstand you.

To clarify, what I mean was a person doesn't have to prove anything to anyone before they get saved. A person doesn't have to bring for fruits meet for repentence before they get saved. That's basically saying, "Go clean up your life before your trust Christ." If someone thought they had to do that, then they'd most certainly get the idea somewhere that they had something to do with their salvation instead of it being of Christ.

That siad, I have no idea what Acts 19:2-4 has to do with the example of John the Baptist.

It demonstrates that John the Baptist is a terrible place to get Church age doctrine. John baptized them and then afterwards they got saved when they trusted Christ, now days people get saved then they get baptized.

Big difference. Edited September 2, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[JerryNumbers]

To clarify, what I mean was a person doesn't have to prove anything to anyone before they get saved. A person doesn't have to bring for fruits meet for repentence before they get saved. That's basically saying, "Go clean up your life before your trust Christ." If someone thought they had to do that, then they'd most certainly get the idea somewhere that they had something to do with their salvation instead of it being of Christ.


It demonstrates that John the Baptist is a terrible place to get Church age doctrine. John baptized them and then afterwards they got saved when they trusted Christ, now days people get saved then they get baptized.

Big difference.

Your wrong on that issue, for its all for our examples.

[Brother Rick]

Your wrong on that issue, for its all for our examples.

Our example is people getting saved after they're baptized instead of before it?

[JerryNumbers]

Our example is people getting saved after they're baptized instead of before it?

Wrong, in the Bible a person is 1st saved, them baptized, study it out, its there. No New Testament Church has the authority to baptize a lost person.

Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They that gladly received the word, that is those who were saved.

Ac 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Ac 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Ac 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Notice the eunuch asked what hinders me from being baptized, them Peter says, "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God," Peter is saying, I will only baptize you if your saved.

There is more proof of this within the pages of the Bible, yet you need to make the effort to understand that lost people are not to be baptized. Teaching the baptizing of lost people is false teaching.

[Brother Rick]

Teaching the baptizing of lost people is false teaching.

That's the point I was trying to make. John the Baptist baptized people before they trusted Christ and got saved.

The only way in which John's baptism could possible be any example to us about anything today would be the fact that it was immersion.

Acts 19:4, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

There are seven different baptisms in the Bible. Edited September 3, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[trc123]

That's the point I was trying to make. John the Baptist baptized people before they trusted Christ and got saved.

The only way in which John's baptism could possible be any example to us about anything today would be the fact that it was immersion.

Acts 19:4, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

There are seven different baptisms in the Bible.

So, did Jesus have to trust Christ to be saved?

[Brother Rick]

So, did Jesus have to trust Christ to be saved?

Did Jesus have to be baptized to be saved?

Jesus was baptized as an example for others to follow and also to identify Himself as the Son of God, hence the whole clouds breaking, Holy Spirit decending like a Dove, God the Father saying, "This is my beloved Son..." thing. Edited September 3, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[trc123]

Did Jesus have to be baptized to be saved?

Jesus was baptized as an example for others to follow and also to identify Himself as the Son of God, hence the whole clouds breaking, Holy Spirit decending like a Dove, God the Father saying, "This is my beloved Son..." thing.

So why did the others get baptized by John?

[Brother Rick]

So why did the others get baptized by John?

It was a matter of the nation of Israel repenting and accepting their upcoming Messiah, not individual salvation. I'd elaborate, but I'm in a bit of a rush, check out point two of this article I wrote, I hope it helps explain where I'm coming from. Thanks.

[anime4christ]

That's the point I was trying to make. John the Baptist baptized people before they trusted Christ and got saved.

The only way in which John's baptism could possible be any example to us about anything today would be the fact that it was immersion.

Acts 19:4, "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

There are seven different baptisms in the Bible.

Though I am not dispensational, that's a pretty good article, Rick.

I think we are off the original topic though...

[Brother Rick]

Though I am not dispensational, that's a pretty good article, Rick.

I think we are off the original topic though...

Thanks brother!

[John81]

One of the prOBlems with the American church is the overall lack of Christians seeing themselves as family and therefore not caring for one another as family.

Scripture says we are brothers and sisters in Christ and we are to care for one another in this light. Instead of following Scripture in this area, most American Christians hold on to their ideas of being independent and selfish.

Why is it we have elderly in our churches who could use a hand with a few things yet the younger, healthy folks in the church don't come to their assistance? Why do we have those who can barely get by while those with an abundance store up their riches or spend them on extravegances rather than helping them? Why do we have men in the church who will go on a couple week mission trip to some other country using their skills (carpentry, electrical, etc.) there but won't provide such help for their own brothers and sisters in Christ within their own church?

Where is the love we are supposed to be showing one another as followers of Christ?

[Brother Rick]

One of the prOBlems with the American church is the overall lack of Christians seeing themselves as family and therefore not caring for one another as family.

Scripture says we are brothers and sisters in Christ and we are to care for one another in this light. Instead of following Scripture in this area, most American Christians hold on to their ideas of being independent and selfish.

Why is it we have elderly in our churches who could use a hand with a few things yet the younger, healthy folks in the church don't come to their assistance? Why do we have those who can barely get by while those with an abundance store up their riches or spend them on extravegances rather than helping them? Why do we have men in the church who will go on a couple week mission trip to some other country using their skills (carpentry, electrical, etc.) there but won't provide such help for their own brothers and sisters in Christ within their own church?

Where is the love we are supposed to be showing one another as followers of Christ?

Amen, I agree entirely. The church is supposed to take care of those that are widows indeed according to scripture.

[John81]

"As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." Galatians 6:10