What a ridiculous level of hate

[HappyChristian]

Seth - you are right, there is much hatred over there toward us. But again, please note that I said the rank and file - meaning the regular citizens. I'm not talking about the rabid jihadists who end up controlling so much. And they do so by sheer terror and power. Karzai was elected properly (the first time; this time I'm not too sure...the lamestream media arouses much doubt in me!) - and the Afghani people rejoiced to be able to vote.

The "Palestinian state" is a bunch of nomads looking for a country to destroy. The King of Jordan kicked them out because they were destroying Jordan.

Saudi Arabia is not our friend, I know that. But the people in many of those countries love us.

Did you know there is a Baptist church in Baghdad? Courtesy of the red, white and blue! A native started the church, and some Baptist pastors went over to help. One of the pastors was killed in a shooting. The native pastor told the others he understood that they needed to leave - and then wept with joy and shock when they told him they weren't leaving until the jOB was done.

There was an unsaved man who landed in Iraq in a helicopter. He was immediately surrounded by Iraqis. At first he was frightened until he realized what they were saying: they were asking for BIBLES. They thought he would have some simply because he was American. He told some Christians over here.

Did you know that girls can now go to school there? Before we went in, they couldn't. And, unlike American kids, they are thankful!

I'd be curious to know, also, how many Iraqis named their sons George - instead of Saddam. Right after the toppling of Saddam, there were a good number.

The hatred is coming from the Ayatollahs and Imams (and Imams here in the US...). Yes, there are people who are infected by it, just as people here in America get infected by hysteria. And it is unfortunate that the people don't have a better voice.

Look at what's happening in Iran right now. News media anywhere? Nah -just dribs and drabs. But the people are struggling for freedom - because of what they have seen in American freedom.

Ironic, isn't it? They are struggling for freedom while our politicians are working to end ours.

[Seth Doty]

Saudi Arabia is not our friend, I know that. But the people in many of those countries love us.

I have a fundamental disagreement with you there. That is what our media, the government, and the former president George Bush wanted to believe and wanted us to believe. I do not believe it. I believe our prOBlems in the middle east are fundamentally a result of the hatred that a huge portion of the people in that region have for America and Israel. Much of this hatred for us is rooted in their religion. Our government takes great pains to say that we are not at war with islam but in truth islam is at war with us. The degree to which they oppose us may vary depending on how committed to their religion they are, but nearly all oppose us to some degree.

There is a American concept dating back to our earliest days that the people as a whole everywhere are fundamentally good and always desire freedom and equality for all. This concept tends to believe that when the people get evil leaders they never wanted them but always have had them thrust upon them. This idea therefore sees it as Americas duty to liberate "oppressed" peoples from their evil leaders in the belief that given a choice the people will always choose something better. This is similar to the view George Bush has and I think it is a naive view. Many times the people love darkness rather than light. Many times the people wanted or deserved the evil leaders they get. Unfortunately America can't simply depose a dictator and make a free nation with liberties like our own. A nation and culture that gave rise to one despotic ruler will always give rise to another no matter how many are deposed until the culture changes. It is like removing one head of the hydra. A people must desire and earn their own freedom to be truly free and not every nation and people is at the point where they value freedom enough to be willing to do what ever it takes to get it. Many do not understand the great value our nation has placed on individual freedom grew out of our nations Christian heritage. Freedom isn't something that can be easily bequeathed to another nation without our heritage. We will also continue to loose individual freedoms here in this nation as the America people more and more turn their back on Christianity.

[JerryNumbers]

I'm skeptic too. How many countries can we go into and prop up their government? What is our track record on doing this?

Actually our politicians cannot even rightly run our government, look at how much debt they have us in and who we are in debt to. That is completely un-American by the standards of our forefathers. You can't keep borrowing money in order to fix other countries governments and keep this one going while being in debt up to your neck to a heather government. Who your in-debt to, that is who your a slave too.

[HappyChristian]

That's okay - but it isn't the majority of the people who are jihadists. And I don't recall much of the lamestream media talking about any of them loving us. Contrary to that, I've heard a lot of how much they all hate us. Many do - the jihadists. But the people who want freedom don't.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that we cannot go in there and set up a nation like ours. They don't think like we do, and they cannot, because they have been oppressed and many have bought into the kill the infidels and destroy the great Satan (the US) idea (and, as you pointed out, they lack our heritage). I know that, and I know that the goal of Islam is to rule the world - at the point of a sword if necessary.

I know that people must earn their freedom - just as we did with the War for Independence. And that is what many in Iran are trying to do. They are being oppressed, though, by the jihadists. Not every Muslim over in those countries wants to see us destroyed. And not every Muslim agrees with the Ayatollahs and Imams. That's how our soldiers get help while they are over there!

I do not and have never accepted the idea that people are fundamentally good. But I do know that many of the people over in those countries want freedom. I don't believe that it is America's duty to liberate them. But they are oppressed. Many have been killed by their own "leaders," who weren't elected but came to power by brutal force. Saddam was put into place by the US (he tried in 1959 and failed and in 1963 the CIA succeeded in the coup, allowing SH to assume power) - a big mistake by our country. And he was removed by the US - I think it was fitting since we put him there. I think you might be surprised just how many of the despots over there have been put in power by US assistance (then again, maybe you wouldn't be - I think you're pretty up on our history!). That is a blight on our country! Now, please note...I am NOT anti-American. It's just a truth about some of our foreign policies that go against the Constitution.

@Jerry8: Agreed!

[JerryNumbers]

Its seems our country has never learned and will never learn you can't make a treaty, pact, with the heathen.

How many of the Muslims are fundamentalist, that is are hard core Muslims. Everyone of the Muslims have the potential to be fundamentalist. I believe that those who are not, when it come down to it, they will take up arms with their fundamentalist brethren against the hated Christians who follow Jesus Christ.

Remember, no where in their book does it have the Golden Rule.

Mt 7:12

[Invicta]

[quote='HappyChristian'


Did you know there is a Baptist church in Baghdad? Courtesy of the red, white and blue! A native started the church, and some Baptist pastors went over to help. One of the pastors was killed in a shooting. The native pastor told the others he understood that they needed to leave - and then wept with joy and shock when they told him they weren't leaving until the jOB was done.

[John81]

Good posts Seth. I've many family and friends in the military over there now or who have recently been there. Also, I've spoken this past year to missionaries from the region. Hatred for Jews and Israel is strong among the population even if it's not outwardly boiling over at the moment.

The same is basically true with regards to Americans and America. While much of the population will act politely toward them, their attitude is of hate and their religion teaches them it's right to lie in order to advance Islam.

America is seen as a devil for supporting Israel and they are seen as invaders of Islamic lands and viewed as waging Christian war against Islam.

Arab and Islamic teaching both agree that for a time one can be viewed as a "friend" but once circumstances change they can instantly be seen as an enemy to destroy. Those Iraqis who wanted Saddam gone (and only those, there were many who liked Saddam) were happy to see the Americans take him out. However, at that point they wanted the Americans gone and they wanted to be left to kill who they wanted and to establish their own government. Now America is viewed by most as an occupying power and only those who are directly benefiting from American power and supplies want them there.

Scripture is clear that Israel has no real friends and in the end, Israel will stand alone.

Those who are viewed as "moderate" Muslims tend to be those who don't carry guns and yell violence but these "moderate" Muslims are the same ones who donate millions of dollars and tons of supplies to the "radical" Muslims to support their efforts to rid the world of Israel, to bring America to her knees and to make Islam the dominate religion of the planet.

Islam is a religion of deceit, violence and domination.

[John81]

[quote='HappyChristian'


Did you know there is a Baptist church in Baghdad? Courtesy of the red, white and blue! A native started the church, and some Baptist pastors went over to help. One of the pastors was killed in a shooting. The native pastor told the others he understood that they needed to leave - and then wept with joy and shock when they told him they weren't leaving until the jOB was done.

Iraq under Saddam Hussein was one of the few Arab states where christian churches were allowed. The baptist church in Baghdad appointed a new pastor about three years or so before Hussein's overthrow. Since then, most Christians have left Iraq due to persecution.

[JerryNumbers]

I keep hearing that Christian persecution in Iraq is going through the roof. But at the same time its going up in America to. I feel its a trend that will keep going up. Unbelievers do not like the Christian faith the least bit, as time goes on they will just tolerate it less and less.

That said, if we suffer persecution because we stand up for Jesus, we are in very good company.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

[JerryNumbers]

How many of his own people did Saddam Hussein murder?

[John81]

How many of their own people have any of the various leaders in the Middle East killed? We don't know. What we do know is that it's common practice over there as it is in many other countries today and has been in many others over the years.

The Shah of Iran, which America placed in power and backed, had a great many people killed. The Royals in Saudi Arabia send people to theie deaths and America calls them their ally. America in the late 20th century has a long history of supporting many leaders who ruled by brute force and killed their own people at will.

China, North Korea and others today have leaders that kill their own people yet that isn't grounds for invasion.

There prOBably isn't a nation on the planet that its leaders haven't killed some of their own people.

Which is the point with Saddam. He was no more or less evil than a dozen or more leaders in the world at the same time and yet America didn't invade any of those other countries. Not to mention the fact there is no grounds for America to declare itself as the worlds policeman.