John Piper

[zealyouthguy]

Well... and that's the point I was making... there is no such thing as "spontaneous salvation" that I read in the Bible, where some is saved without them realizing it and consciously deciding to accept God's gift of salvation. God pursues... this is true, and God gives us the ability to accept or deny his gift.

[kevinmiller]

I believe that there may be some balance between the two. I believe that it leans more on the side of free-will, but the Bible does talk about foreknowledge and election. Perhaps, knowing who would accept Him or reject Him, and giving them the free-will to do so, knowing what choice they would make, He has predestined them for His plans. Every person living has the choice to accept or reject, but there may be some foreknowledge on God's part. All I can really know for sure is that God's ways are above man's ways that we cannot understand them.

[zealyouthguy]

I believe that there may be some balance between the two. I believe that it leans more on the side of free-will' date=' but the Bible does talk about foreknowledge and election. Perhaps, knowing who would accept Him or reject Him, and giving them the free-will to do so, knowing what choice they would make, He has predestined them for His plans. Every person living has the choice to accept or reject, but there may be some foreknowledge on God's part. All I can really know for sure is that God's ways are above man's ways that we cannot understand them.[/quote']
I never said it was easy OR understandable...
but that's where Calvinism goes off the deep-end. Part of the mystery of God is His omnipotence... Some things we just can't comprehend.

[heartstrings]

All of Calvinism goes off the deep end. Every bit of it is false doctrine.

[zealyouthguy]

All of Calvinism goes off the deep end. Every bit of it is false doctrine.

Yeah, I agree, there is all kinds of whacko's out there that try to bend verses of the Bible to fit their preconceived notions...

[kevinmiller]

Yeah, I agree, there is all kinds of whacko's out there that try to bend verses of the Bible to fit their preconceived notions...

Calvinists are wackos who bend verses to fit their beliefs?? Wow. Then one is forced to wonder why Calvinists have so much passion that free-willers are often so lacking in. I don't know a Calvinist that deliberately bends verses to fit his beliefs, and I have a lot of Calvinist friends.

And while I disagree with four out of the five points of Calvinism, I don't belief that "P" is totally off the deep end.

[heartstrings]

Yeah, I agree, there is all kinds of whacko's out there that try to bend verses of the Bible to fit their preconceived notions...

I'm really sorry if you feel that way. Will you please pray for me that I will learn how to rightly divide the Word of truth? Because, though I am a sinner, I truly am a child of God.
If I have offended you, please accept my appologies.

[hayesy]

Just to compare:

Once again' date=' salvation is simple. Why do we make it so complicated? Even a child can believe[/color']

with:

I never said it was easy OR understandable...
but that's where Calvinism goes off the deep-end. Part of the mystery of God is His omnipotence... Some things we just can't comprehend.

Just thought that was an interesting contrast. I agree, there are some things about God that are incommunicable and incomprehendable. However, in Ephesians we are told he has made known the mystery of His will. So there's got to be some sort of balance.

there is no such thing as "spontaneous salvation" that I read in the Bible

Nor does predestination imply it, by the way.

God is not and never can be unjust - however some of what Calvinists like to attribute to Him is unjust. That is why we do not accept their doctrines.

For argument's sake, how does Calvinism attribute to God injustice?
Would we all agree that God would be perfectly just to have never sent Jesus, to have let us suffer the wages of our sin? For surely we deserve the penalty. If God could justly damn all, how then is it injust for God to save some? Surely this speaks mercy only, and not injustice!
It feels injust to our proud minds because we feel we deserve more. Indeed, that is why Paul wrote (and answered) the rhetorical questions in Romans 9. But do we deserve anything?

[kevinmiller]

I believe that there is a balance. In dying, Christ PROVIDED the penalty of sin for all mankind. That salvation is available to all men, the Bible makes that clear. God only saves some. The reason being, not all will accept it. Whether God knew it and predestinated those people or not is the question to be discussed. The Bible seems clear, though, that salvation is provided to all who will believe, but we have a choice, and that choice means the difference between our destination, be it pre or post-determined.

[heartstrings]

For argument's sake, how does Calvinism attribute to God injustice?
Would we all agree that God would be perfectly just to have never sent Jesus, to have let us suffer the wages of our sin? For surely we deserve the penalty. If God could justly damn all, how then is it injust for God to save some? Surely this speaks mercy only, and not injustice!
It feels injust to our proud minds because we feel we deserve more. Indeed, that is why Paul wrote (and answered) the rhetorical questions in Romans 9. But do we deserve anything?

Yes, but thankfully, the all powerful God who created the universe, is much more than just a righteous judge. God is love. That is what we will never fathom or exhaust. God has no limits and neither does His love. There is not a single sinner, or a single sin that He did not die for. 1John 2:2, Hebrews 2:9. Accept or reject it...He gave us the choice. John 3:16,

Could we with ink, the ocean fill
And were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill
And every man a scribe by trade
To write the love, of God above
Would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole
Though stretched from sky to sky

[zealyouthguy]

I'm really sorry if you feel that way. Will you please pray for me that I will learn how to rightly divide the Word of truth? Because, though I am a sinner, I truly am a child of God.
If I have offended you, please accept my appologies.

No, my point was made... there are people out there that will say your belief in the Gap Theory means a lot of things that YOU DON'T believe (for example if you believe in Gap Theory you believe scientist more than God). Now YOU may not believe that, and might not think it's fair for me to say it... and THAT was my point (through sarcasm) that you are willing to declare them all heretics, when most of them don't believe what you are saying...

And as I stated there are a ton of calvinists that have went off the deep end also.

But to argue that there isn't some merit to the discussion of election/predestination, and that it's not worthy to consider is where I disagree with you.

[zealyouthguy]

Calvinists are wackos who bend verses to fit their beliefs?? Wow. Then one is forced to wonder why Calvinists have so much passion that free-willers are often so lacking in. I don't know a Calvinist that deliberately bends verses to fit his beliefs, and I have a lot of Calvinist friends.

And while I disagree with four out of the five points of Calvinism, I don't belief that "P" is totally off the deep end.

Sigh...

Go read my response to heartstrings.

[zealyouthguy]

One last thing, since it's all intertwined, I just wanted to state that my discussions have been concerning Calvinism but not Piper specifically.

[kevinmiller]

Sorry, didn't realize you were being sarcastic.

[hayesy]

I believe that there is a balance. In dying' date=' Christ PROVIDED the penalty of sin for all mankind. That salvation is available to all men, the Bible makes that clear. God only saves some. The reason being, not all will accept it. Whether God knew it and predestinated those people or not is the question to be discussed. The Bible seems clear, though, that salvation is provided to all who will believe, but we have a choice, and that choice means the difference between our destination, be it pre or post-determined.[/quote']
I think I agree with everything you just said. Predestination simply adds another level behind our choices and says, instead of God only knowing what our choices will be, He destined us to make them.