Jackhammer on Hyles Soul-winning

[kevinmiller]

Yes, but I don't think that an actual thought-out, worded prayer is necessary. Perhaps that is what your saying as well, just clarifying. :smile

[Jerry]

Yes, I believe a heart-felt prayer is needed - not some pre-formatted prayer. God looks at the heart - and will save anyone who truly cries out to Him for salvation, regardless of what they pray or how their prayer is worded. He knows what they mean, and what they need, even more than they do.

I believe if you are witnessing to someone and they truly express a desire to be saved, but are unsure how to go about it, then leading them in a prayer (or even opening up in prayer, then letting the person pray on their own) is not wrong - as long as you make it clear to them that God looks on the heart. It is not some prayer that saves (in itself - ie. if there was no true belief, then praying will avail nothing), but the belief in the heart - calling out to the Lord in prayer is acting on that belief.

[bzmomo7]

:lol: Jerry beat me to the punch. I guess I never really thought about that story that way, Kevin. I was looking up the verses Jerry quoted (Romans 10:9-10, 13). It is really good if you back up to Romans 10:8-14. It speaks several times about calling on the Lord. In light of that I wonder if the Eunich indeed did not pray (either in his heart or aloud) or is it just not mentioned?

[bzmomo7]

Yes, I believe a heart-felt prayer is needed - not some pre-formatted prayer. God looks at the heart - and will save anyone who truly cries out to Him for salvation, regardless of what they pray or how their prayer is worded. He knows what they mean, and what they need, even more than they do.

I believe if you are witnessing to someone and they truly express a desire to be saved, but are unsure how to go about it, then leading them in a prayer (or even opening up in prayer, then letting the person pray on their own) is not wrong - as long as you make it clear to them that God looks on the heart. It is not some prayer that saves (in itself - ie. if there was no true belief, then praying will avail nothing), but the belief in the heart - calling out to the Lord in prayer is acting on that belief.

I hope I've been on here long enough Jerry that you will believe me when I say I'm not trying to pick on you......I'm trying to find answers to legitimate questions I have. I never understood the Hyles phenomena even existed until Kevin brought it up on another thread (thanks Kevin!) and the only exposure I'd had was a little stuff on witnessing (so I didn't know about all their methodologies either until lately). If you go back, Jerry and read what you just wrote up above, the Hyles crowd (and many others we might not agree with) would agree whole-heartedly. I don't have a problem with what you said either, BUT I never saw the repentance issue as clear problem until I was on Jackhammer. That is what sparked me to ask all the questions!! (I just took it for granted that you repented when you believed--like you and I discussed earlier--for us it sort of began first)

[Jerry]

The difference is: they believe a prayer saves - including praying without necessarily believing (ie. just saying the words is what saves). I believe salvation is not a prayer - but belief in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Lord God and salvation is found in trusting Him to save you (based on His finished work upon the cross). I fully believe that trusting in Jesus for salvation involves calling upon Him to save you - as those verses quoted clearly state. The Publican in Luke 18 called upon the Lord to save Him. The thief on the cross did so. No one I know who was ever saved (referring to those I've personally met) was saved without turning to the Lord in prayer and asking Him to save them, regardless of what words were used. The word "confess" in Romans 10:9-10 indicate agreement with - can you be in agreement with God about your sinful condition and your need for a Saviour (the Lord Jesus Christ) without expressing that agreement in prayer (communicating with God is praying)?

I am totally against Hyles-type evangelism and 1-2-3 pray after me junk. If I am explaining something unclearly, I certainly want to clarify. If I am off on my explanation, I would like to correct it. I believe that repentance and faith in Christ is what saves - not some prayer - however, I believe that prayer is the means or avenue we speak with God about our need of His salvation. Ever met a true believer who NEVER prayed at all? If someone says they believe, but refuse to call upon the Lord to save them and seek His forgiveness of sins/gift of salvation, are they saved? I don't believe so. True faith and calling upon Him for salvation go hand in hand.

[bzmomo7]

The difference is: they believe a prayer saves - including praying without necessarily believing (ie. just saying the words is what saves). I believe salvation is not a prayer - but belief in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Lord God and salvation is found in trusting Him to save you (based on His finished work upon the cross). I fully believe that trusting in Jesus for salvation involves calling upon Him to save you - as those verses quoted clearly state. The Publican in Luke 18 called upon the Lord to save Him. The thief on the cross did so. No one I know who was ever saved (referring to those I've personally met) was saved without turning to the Lord in prayer and asking Him to save them, regardless of what words were used. The word "confess" in Romans 10:9-10 indicate agreement with - can you be in agreement with God about your sinful condition and your need for a Saviour (the Lord Jesus Christ) without expressing that agreement in prayer (communicating with God is praying)?

I am totally against Hyles-type evangelism and 1-2-3 pray after me junk. If I am explaining something unclearly, I certainly want to clarify. If I am off on my explanation, I would like to correct it. I believe that repentance and faith in Christ is what saves - not some prayer - however, I believe that prayer is the means or avenue we speak with God about our need of His salvation. Ever met a true believer who NEVER prayed at all? If someone says they believe, but refuse to call upon the Lord to save them and seek His forgiveness of sins/gift of salvation, are they saved? I don't believe so. True faith and calling upon Him for salvation go hand in hand.

I agree with you, I don't like the Hyles brand of evangelism one bit. What I meant before was that if you didn't know how they went about it all (and I didn't used to) and you just read a tract of theirs--I was thinking it might be difficult to tell the difference of what they believe vs. what we believe. I mean, it is a far cry from "Bow your head and ask Jesus into your heart" type thing. What do you think about the use of tracts? (ie. handing them to store clerks or a waitress etc.)?

[kevinmiller]

I like tracts that get you thinking and have the capability to lead to repentence, but not the "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for you" with a sinner's prayer stuff.

About the eunich, it seemed like the Bible indicated that his faith was enough to warrant baptism as a Christian. He must've truly had a heart change, but it does not indicate any kind of prayer.

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

I think the main problem as Kevin,Jerry and just about every else in this thread has said,is that the gospel itself is to often presented in a shallow way.I do believe that if you have faith in Christ at the time of salvation,whether you say it out loud,or to yourself,you simply ask Jesus to save you.Thats what prayer is,talking with God,whether aloud or silently,I believe everyone who is saved does this,to put your trust in Jesus is asking him to save you.
I also agree with Kevin that we dont have to make people jump through hoops to be saved,you know,you half to walk the isle and declare it before the whole church stuff.Thats bologna,I know thats not a great theological term but thats what it is,bologna :loll:
Back to the point since I caught my rabbit ,I think the gospel needs to be explained very thouroughly and compltely,before we ever get to the part about recieving Jesus by faith.show from God's word how we stack up against God's law,use the law like a mirror,let the sinner see himself the way God sees him.Then make it clear that God is holy and sin must be punished,and that if that person dies in their sin,they will indeed suffer the righteous wrath of God,because they are law breakers. Then show them the good news,who Jesus is(God in the flesh) what he did to pay for their sin.I always mention the blood because God puts a premium on the death and the blood for our propitiation,then mention the great resurrection morning!
At this point(if Im soul winning) I try and gague if they are experiencing repentance for their sin,this is a work of the Holy Spirit as we all know.If their is no repentance from what they are telling me,I dont even get to the 'prayer' part.
I also dont leave them without letting them know that if they are wanting to turn from their sinful life and turn to Jesus,all they need to do then is believe,call on him and he will save you if your heart is right.
When preaching a sermon to a cell or room full of folks,I do the same,but I cant go and gague each individual to see if they are being convicted of their sin.I stress(after a full presentation of the gospel) that its a heart condition that God sees.
I usually warn them that saying a prayer with no faith is no salvation at all.Faith in a prayer never saved anyone.
I aslo stress to them if they are under Holy Spirit conviction,they will know it,I tell them I cant look at them and see their heart .But God can.I talk about being a new creature before I give the invitation to make sure they know that God will change them when they get saved,I do this because some dont want the change,they dont like the idea of hell forever,but sometimes they dont want to change.Then I make sure they know what they are doing,Its not a 1-2-3 pray thing.its a heart thing.Then I lead them in a prayer to recieve Jesus as Saviour.I know some preachers say"ok whos saved raise your hand" before they give the invitation,I dont like to do this because I want The Holy Spirit to let them know if they are saved or not,not by raising a hand.Im not saying its wrong to do this,I just dont like to,more of a preferance deal.
When I am done with the prayer I then ask them to raise their hand if they recieved Christ,again just my preferance,I want them to be open about what the Lord just did in their heart.
Then I give scripture to them cautioning them,that if there is no change in their life,no Holy Spirit conviction about their sin,(santification)they need to make sure that they are truly saved.Then I tell them that only them and God truly know if they are saved,but they will have a changed life.

Then I use this illustration about my daughter..."When my daughter was about 4 she liked to play with her mothers curling iron.Now me as a father when I saw her doing this,I would discipline her in a way that would want to make her stop.Not because I am a mean dad,but because I love her and I dont want to see her get hurt.God will do the same to you if you got saved.That curling iron represents your sin,if your dabbling in that sin holdind,grabing at that sin,God will chastise you.Not because he hates you,but because He loves you,your his son now.He knows that sin will bring pain and misery to your life and end the end will destroy you.So,he will take you to the wood shed..if you are his son.If you feel no conviction about sin,and can live your life the way you were before you got saved,chances are you arent saved.But thats between you and God.I know if you did what this bible says to do to be saved thats it ."
Thats a condensed way I preach it,the main thing IMO is just preach the gospel, IN FULL DETAIL.Because thats the way God says to do it,let The Holy Spirit take care of the sinner,the preacher just needs to present God's truth.

Kind of long,but I hope this helps bizmom...

[kevinmiller]

I don't really like the whole pray-after-me, in their seats, kind of thing. It's too easy to pray that prayer. They don't have to get up, don't even have to confront their sin. All they have to do is repeat that prayer after you. I think we ought to stay as far away as possible from anything that encourages repeating a prayer, in any form. We can emphasize being serious, and meaning it, but even a well-meaning person can pray that prayer simply to get their fire insurance without any real conviction at all. We've had hundreds of people raise their hands saying that they got saved after repeating a prayer after our pastor in one week when we do our Easter program. Yet, no one joins the church the next week. Something's not right. :roll

[Jerry]

Sometimes I think we are too afraid of someone praying wrongly that we take it to the opposite extreme. When I came to the Lord, I prayed - I called upon Him to save me, knowing full well what I was doing. I turned to the Lord Jesus Christ and asked Him to save me from my sins - believing that He had died on the cross to do so. I have no doubt in my mind that I am saved, and that that date marks the anniversary of my spiritual birthday.

If witnessing to someone and they say, I believe - but are unwilling to call out to the Lord, do they really believe? Are they really saved? Romans 10:13 quite clearly indicates it is WHEN they call out to the Lord that they are saved - not that they are saved first and then call out to the Lord (which some do teach). Also, Romans 10:9-10 indicate it is WHEN we confess to God (ie. pray to Him) that we are saved - that is prayer specifically involved with our salvation.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

I agree,nothing wrong with praying to be saved.Nothing wrong with helping the sinner ask God to save them,I dont believe.A sinner could be under conviction,and not sure what to do next,if I just tell them the gospel and say see ya,with out telling them about faith,trust and calling upon the Lord,I have failed that person.
The two extremes should be avoided IMO,the 1-2-3 trust in a prayer and the never tell people to pray to recieve Jesus should be avoided also.
I preach in big cell blocks with 30+ men,no isles to walk down there,so I dont think walking down an isle is confronting sin,the Holy Spirit does that. No isles in the NT.I just encourage those who have recieved Christ to not be ashamed to tell every one.
The only thing we can do to keep from having false converts is to preach the gospel completely and thouroughly and avoid easy believism(faith in a prayer).We can never know a persons heart,thats between them and the Lord.Its up to us to preach the truth and let God do the rest.Its a heart thing,not a prayer thing.

[Juliemw]

The difference is: they believe a prayer saves - including praying without necessarily believing (ie. just saying the words is what saves).

I disagree 100%. I was a member of that church for 14 years and graduated from their college, and while there are some in every group that go off the deep end, I *personally* have never heard of anyone who taught that or believed that. That is completely foreign to me. I have yet to find anyone who believes a prayer is magical words and you don't even have to believe or mean them.

[Juliemw]

I don't really like the whole pray-after-me' date=' in their seats, kind of thing. It's too easy to pray that prayer. They don't have to get up, don't even have to confront their sin. All they have to do is repeat that prayer after you. I think we ought to stay as far away as possible from anything that encourages repeating a prayer, in any form. We can emphasize being serious, and meaning it, but even a well-meaning person can pray that prayer simply to get their fire insurance without any real conviction at all. [/quote']

While I can truly appreciate your longing for sincerity, I have yet to find in the Bible where it says it is wrong to make it as easy as possible for someone to get saved.

[Bakershalfdozen]

This is what I learned from from Phoster Club: (if you are not familiar with Hammond, this is the church ladies soulwinning club; the men's group is called the Fisherman's Club)


1. When they answer the door, if they open up the door at all, put your foot into it so they can't close it.

2. Ask them, "If you were to die right now, are you 100% sure you would go to Heaven?" Most people aren't 100% sure so when they say, "No", immediately open up your New Testament and start down the Romans Road. Try not let them talk.

3. Ask them if they know that they are a sinner, all the while nodding your head. This will help them nod their head also.

4. Once you get to the end of the Romans Road, ask them if they want to go to Heaven. (Doesn't everybody?) Nod your head so they will too. Ask them if they want to go to hell (shake head no). Tell them that all they have to do is "pray this prayer after me" and they will be saved.


A friend of mine, while in college at HAC, followed this procedure. The would-be Christian asked, "So all I have to do is say those words and I'll go to Heaven?" Being deceived about witnessing, my friend replied, "Yes." The would-be Christian said, "Great! Now I can still go out partying, [etc.] but don't have to worry about hell anymore!!."

Steve Anderson (among many others) of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Arizona heavily promotes this method as well.

Other things I learned from Phoster Club:

The more you "win" the more you win! Whoever gets the most professions this week gets [insert prize]. Whoever gets the most in the year gets [insert big prize].




People, this is wrong on so many levels. :sad

[HappyChristian]

This is what I learned from from Phoster Club: (if you are not familiar with Hammond, this is the church ladies soulwinning club; the men's group is called the Fisherman's Club)


1. When they answer the door, if they open up the door at all, put your foot into it so they can't close it.

2. Ask them, "If you were to die right now, are you 100% sure you would go to Heaven?" Most people aren't 100% sure so when they say, "No", immediately open up your New Testament and start down the Romans Road. Try not let them talk.

3. Ask them if they know that they are a sinner, all the while nodding your head. This will help them nod their head also.

4. Once you get to the end of the Romans Road, ask them if they want to go to Heaven. (Doesn't everybody?) Nod your head so they will too. Ask them if they want to go to hell (shake head no). Tell them that all they have to do is "pray this prayer after me" and they will be saved.


A friend of mine, while in college at HAC, followed this procedure. The would-be Christian asked, "So all I have to do is say those words and I'll go to Heaven?" Being deceived about witnessing, my friend replied, "Yes." The would-be Christian said, "Great! Now I can still go out partying, [etc.] but don't have to worry about hell anymore!!."

Steve Anderson (among many others) of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Arizona heavily promotes this method as well.

Other things I learned from Phoster Club:

The more you "win" the more you win! Whoever gets the most professions this week gets [insert prize]. Whoever gets the most in the year gets [insert big prize].




People, this is wrong on so many levels. :sad

And don't forget being crowned queen for having the most decisions. I've been in a couple of churches that used this method (Phoster Club), and man were they people promoters. No praising the Lord for souls saved (and those souls were nowhere near the churches!!), but a lot of praise for the queen of soulwinners!!

I have to say that in the '70's, the church we began attending had a Phoster Club. My mother went. It was not as pushy then as it has become - either that, or the pastor of the church there didn't allow it to be pushy, don't know.