Jackhammer on Hyles Soul-winning

[bzmomo7]

I have been doing some Hyles soul-winning research. Wow, is this interesting. Anyway, I would have asked this question on their site, but I found the vigor with which they debate a little intimidating to say the least! Here is the link http://www.jackhammr.org/2007/10/17/jac ... /#more-221
My question is this: Given the dissection of what the two sides believe repentance means, how different would the prayer a person would pray for salvation be? It wouldn't of course be helpful to tell me it would be "really" different......could you give me an example of each?
P.S. You don't have to enlighten me on the horrors of Hyles or the myriad of things he teaches etc. I understand those, I am specifically thinking about tracts and on various websites what you would look for in how the gospel is presented and how it would encourage a person to pray.

[LindaR]

You can find more on this topic here:
http://www.onlinebaptist.com/messageboards/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=19801&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[kevinmiller]

Salvation does not equal a prayer and I don't care for any kind of witnessing tool that encourages and outlines a "sinner's prayer," which you will not find anywhere in Scripture. The bigger issue is repentance and faith in Christ.

[LAF]

My background is having went to a Hyles church and the college .It emphaises the prayer is what saves you .Having to get someone to say a prayer so you can tell everyone later that you got (insert large number here )saved.

I am not against prayer but I am against tricking someone into it .

[churchmouse7]

I have had a lot of questions and concerns about this too. Where I attend I have been taught repentance is a turning away of what you believed in and turning to Christ for salvation. When I trusted Christ (I was led to the Lord through this church) the scriptures were shown to me and I realized that I couldn't go to Heaven by what I did or didn't do but through Jesus only. I also realized I was a sinner deserving hell and I did ask Christ to forgive me for my sin. I have seen some though who get people to pray and walk away saying they are saved. I recently met a woman and shared the Gospel with her and she said she wouldn't accept Christ as her Saviour because of the sin in her life and she said she wasn't wanting to or able to change that. I invited her to church and she and her 4 boys came. I am going by today to see if she will come tomorrow. I don't believe we should trick people or get them to say a prayer either. When I share the Gospel with people I do tell them God knows their heart and it's not the words they say that take them to Heaven. I also encourage them to come to church. I hope I am not misleading people by the way I am doing this. I have been struggling with this and really thinking about repentance.
In Christ

[bzmomo7]

Salvation does not equal a prayer and I don't care for any kind of witnessing tool that encourages and outlines a "sinner's prayer' date='" which you will not find anywhere in Scripture. The bigger issue is repentance and faith in Christ.[/quote']

Ok, I think you've misunderstood me, I know that salvation doesn't equal prayer, and I totally understand the difference between the two sides disagreement about what repentence means. I agree with the position opposite of Hyles.....that is the way I've been taught and it is Biblical. Do you use or hand out tracts? Also, while praying a prayer isn't what saves you--it is an integral part of salvation (be it in silent while you are alone or aloud in front of someone else) because this is how we communicate with the Lord. So, back to my question: what difference would you hear between the two prayers--if you could indeed evesdrop into even the silent ones even? Perhaps, this may sound trivial to you, but I think it is very important....I'm thinking the differences may be quite subtle, but substantial. I also realize that prayer is just a reflection of what is going on in a persons heart, but since we can't actually view that--that is why I am asking about something you can. If that makes sense, and this is all with the assumption that what the person prays matches what they understand, believe and have accepted.

[bzmomo7]

I have had a lot of questions and concerns about this too. Where I attend I have been taught repentance is a turning away of what you believed in and turning to Christ for salvation. When I trusted Christ (I was led to the Lord through this church) the scriptures were shown to me and I realized that I couldn't go to Heaven by what I did or didn't do but through Jesus only. I also realized I was a sinner deserving hell and I did ask Christ to forgive me for my sin. I have seen some though who get people to pray and walk away saying they are saved. I recently met a woman and shared the Gospel with her and she said she wouldn't accept Christ as her Saviour because of the sin in her life and she said she wasn't wanting to or able to change that. I invited her to church and she and her 4 boys came. I am going by today to see if she will come tomorrow. I don't believe we should trick people or get them to say a prayer either. When I share the Gospel with people I do tell them God knows their heart and it's not the words they say that take them to Heaven. I also encourage them to come to church. I hope I am not misleading people by the way I am doing this. I have been struggling with this and really thinking about repentance.
In Christ

I have the feeling that we are not the only people needing to examine this. Obviously, you understood what I was talking about. We need to be sure we get this right, and it is not one of those topics that people like to start because all of a sudden they look at you funny and think--"What??? YOU don't know how to present the gospel??" When it isn't quite what you mean at all.

[Jerry]

The Bible teaches that repentance is a change of mind, resulting in a change of conduct (based on the word usage throughout the whole Bible). In regards to man, the primary emphasis is on a change of mind about our sin and the direction we are going in life (ie. our way, not God's). Repentance is turning from our sin in our heart and turning to the Saviour - acknowledging our way and our sin is wrong, and accepting His will for our lives (ie. now doing an about face and going His way).

Repentance is not cleaning up our lives first before coming to the Saviour - then that would be works. Repentance is changing our mind about those sins, choosing to give them up and receive the Saviour - then walking with the Saviour and letting Him clean up our lives. True repentance WILL result in a changed life - because then the Holy Spirit regenerates us, makes us new creatures, makes us His children - then we can no longer live the way we used to - we are changed eternally, now partakers of the divine nature. Someone once used the illustration of our hands full of sin - we must first open our hands and let the sin go to receive the gift of eternal life with those same hands.

Repentance is not merely or only changing our minds about our beliefs or changing from unbelief to belief - which is what Hyles and Curtis Hutson teach. Yes, it would also involve that:

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But when repentance is dealt with in the Bible, it is primarily dealing with conduct. In the passage above, the change of mind would involve now believing that Jesus is the Lord God of the Bible, that He is the Messiah, that He is righteous and we are unrighteous, that He is the only way of salvation and we need His gift of eternal life/righteousness to be saved. Confess means to agree with God (ie. in this context - compare also 1 John 1:9) about, to be of one mind with. We are changing our rebellious mind and now agreeing with Him about our sinful condition and our need of the Saviour. If there is no repentance of our SINS, then there is no true turning in our hearts to the Saviour - because we are not convinced we need Jesus to save us from the penalty, power, and presence of them.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin of salvation. Without repentance, our calling on Jesus to save us from our sins is vain - without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption, our turning from sins is basically moral reformation, without lasting value.

There are many verses that teach that there are specific sins that hold us back from salvation - ie. ones that must be given up (ie. turned from in our hearts) BEFORE we can be saved. Going through the 10 commandments would show us what is wrong, and what sorts of sins we need to be saved from - therefore emphasizing that we need to turn from those ones in particular (wouldn't make sense to "receive Jesus" for salvation from our sins of thieving and adultery if we had no intention of ever turning from them!). Eg. lying, stealing, adultery, covetting, not honouring our parents, idolatry, believing in false gods, working our way to Heaven (ie. not believing in the fulfillment of the sabbath - Jesus is our eternal rest), murdering, and blaspheming God's name.

There are others. Read this passage carefully - these were sins they had to turn from (ie. change their minds about and turn from in their hearts) IN ORDER TO BE SAVED:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

When they repented of those sins and received the Saviour, they were washed in the blood of the Lamb, justified in God's sight, and sanctified (set apart for God's use).

Some other related passages are:

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Again, I am not talking about cleaning our lives up physically of these sins (ie. as some kind of outward reformation) - but turning from them in our hearts (repenting of them - ie. inwardly turning from them) to the Saviour, and then letting the Lord clean up our lives physically and spiritually (from the inside out, through the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit).

[Psalms18_28]

I met someone online who bragged that over 100 people got saved in his church during that night..

It didn't sound right, so I looked up his church, and I found out it was one of Hyles' church. I believe this church where hyles college is located.

Later I discovered that they believe in "1-2-3 pray after me" salvation.

now how they got all those people wear strict clothing is beyond me.

[churchmouse7]

Thank you Jerry for your post that was very helpful. I have been taught repentance is a turning from ones beliefs to Christ which we do have to do but from reading God's Word and talking with other believers I do believe as you said we have to have a turning away of sin in our heart also and then God can work on us and change our lives as you also stated. I have been with others who witness to people and are very careful that the person understands that they are a sinner in need of salvation through Christ but I have also been out with people who read through a tract and pray with the person and I think that is wrong. I won't go any further if the person can't admit they have sin in their life that needs to be forgiven and that they need to come to Jesus with that.
As far as when the person prays I think one of the sweetest times I remember seeing someone saved was when I went knocking doors with a missionary and she had the person ask Jesus in his own words for salvation rather than help him with the prayer. She also spent over an hour going through scripture with him and asking him questions and answering questions with more scripture.
I have been struggling because of what I have been taught and I don't want to mislead or confuse anyone.Witnessing to the lost is the most important thing we as Christians do and I want to give a clear presentation of the Gospel to those God puts in my path. I appreciate your post that did help to clarify the meaning of repentance.
In Christ

[bzmomo7]

The Bible teaches that repentance is a change of mind, resulting in a change of conduct (based on the word usage throughout the whole Bible). In regards to man, the primary emphasis is on a change of mind about our sin and the direction we are going in life (ie. our way, not God's). Repentance is turning from our sin in our heart and turning to the Saviour - acknowledging our way and our sin is wrong, and accepting His will for our lives (ie. now doing an about face and going His way).

Repentance is not cleaning up our lives first before coming to the Saviour - then that would be works. Repentance is changing our mind about those sins, choosing to give them up and receive the Saviour - then walking with the Saviour and letting Him clean up our lives. True repentance WILL result in a changed life - because then the Holy Spirit regenerates us, makes us new creatures, makes us His children - then we can no longer live the way we used to - we are changed eternally, now partakers of the divine nature. Someone once used the illustration of our hands full of sin - we must first open our hands and let the sin go to receive the gift of eternal life with those same hands.

Repentance is not merely or only changing our minds about our beliefs or changing from unbelief to belief - which is what Hyles and Curtis Hutson teach. Yes, it would also involve that:

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But when repentance is dealt with in the Bible, it is primarily dealing with conduct. In the passage above, the change of mind would involve now believing that Jesus is the Lord God of the Bible, that He is the Messiah, that He is righteous and we are unrighteous, that He is the only way of salvation and we need His gift of eternal life/righteousness to be saved. Confess means to agree with God (ie. in this context - compare also 1 John 1:9) about, to be of one mind with. We are changing our rebellious mind and now agreeing with Him about our sinful condition and our need of the Saviour. If there is no repentance of our SINS, then there is no true turning in our hearts to the Saviour - because we are not convinced we need Jesus to save us from the penalty, power, and presence of them.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin of salvation. Without repentance, our calling on Jesus to save us from our sins is vain - without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption, our turning from sins is basically moral reformation, without lasting value.

There are many verses that teach that there are specific sins that hold us back from salvation - ie. ones that must be given up (ie. turned from in our hearts) BEFORE we can be saved. Going through the 10 commandments would show us what is wrong, and what sorts of sins we need to be saved from - therefore emphasizing that we need to turn from those ones in particular (wouldn't make sense to "receive Jesus" for salvation from our sins of thieving and adultery if we had no intention of ever turning from them!). Eg. lying, stealing, adultery, covetting, not honouring our parents, idolatry, believing in false gods, working our way to Heaven (ie. not believing in the fulfillment of the sabbath - Jesus is our eternal rest), murdering, and blaspheming God's name.

There are others. Read this passage carefully - these were sins they had to turn from (ie. change their minds about and turn from in their hearts) IN ORDER TO BE SAVED:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

When they repented of those sins and received the Saviour, they were washed in the blood of the Lamb, justified in God's sight, and sanctified (set apart for God's use).

Some other related passages are:

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Again, I am not talking about cleaning our lives up physically of these sins (ie. as some kind of outward reformation) - but turning from them in our hearts (repenting of them - ie. inwardly turning from them) to the Saviour, and then letting the Lord clean up our lives physically and spiritually (from the inside out, through the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit).

I understood what you said about repentance & I agree with it wholeheartedly, but how is this repentance manifested in one's prayer to God for salvation? For example, this is what happened when I was saved. (the nut-shell version) I was a teenager & I, through many tears, poured out my heart to God while I was alone. I was awake all night & literally saw the sun come up as I had much on my mind. My dad had died of heart condition a month or so before & my mom was dying of cancer & weighed less than 90lbs. I knew I was on the wrong path. I was painfully aware that death was a certainty for everyone & I knew where I'd be heading if I died right then--I knew I was lost. I knew about God, creation, heaven and hell & that Christ took the penalty for our sins on the cross. I called out to God & told Him I was very sorry for my sins & asked him to forgive me. I even named every sin by name that I could think of that I'd done & then asked for forgiveness for all those I couldn't remember or had done ignorantly. I didn't want to be like I was then, I wanted to be different--I used the word repent, even though I didn't necessarily understand the fullness of what it meant at that time...but in my own words I told God I wanted to change & do whatever He wanted me to do. I asked Him to save me even though I knew I didn't deserve His mercy. I knew what the Bible said & I put my faith in the fact His Word is true. Not only that, but I'd come across quite a few Jehovah's Witnesses in my time growing up & to be absolutely certain I began my prayer specifically to the God of the Bible. I did not believe in other gods, but I told the Lord I wanted to be sure HE knew I was praying to the One & Only True God--the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob who sent Jesus Christ to be our Savior. This all may sound very nit-picky, but I wanted to be absolutely certain I didn't miss anything--I knew the J.W. thought they were saved--but they were not. While I'm not advocating praying the way I did, it is even more true today that many think they are saved when they in fact are not. In Hyles' book Let's Go Soul-winning on pg. 38 (yes, I'm checking this stuff all out) in his "techniques" he would be certain a person knows they are a sinner, lost & on their way to hell & that Jesus paid the penalty for their sin & is willing to give them the free gift of eternal life if they'll just pray & ask Him to forgive them. He would have someone then pray "Lord, be merciful unto me a sinner...forgive my sins & save my soul..." . Now, please don't hammer me on the prayer issue--I don't believe in leading a 1-2-3-pray after me thing & I know its not the prayer that saves you. However, prayer is how we talk to God, so it is an vital part of salvation. If a person understand the Gospel & feels convicted must they use the term "repent" or words directly demonstrating a willingness to turn from sin, or is it ok that they just have this repentance in their heart without speaking it? I'm thinking about my kids, they come to me for some naughtiness they've done--oh yes they are gonna be sorry!! They are going to want forgiveness, BUT, I as a parent, want to know/see a demonstration that they are going to try to not to let this naughtiness take hold of them again--not that it can't, but that they are truly sorry enough to make a change to avoid it in the future! It would not assure me if I didn't hear this "repentance" from them & they just kept it to themselves. What about God's view? He obviously knows things I as a mom could never know about my kids' intents. I have noticed many, many tracts do not deal with repentance adequately or many web-sites for that matter--certainly not like you did above. When we are out witnessing, what is the proper approach to teaching about repentance & how it is demonstrated before a Holy God?

[Jerry]

I don't think the specific words are important - it is the heart attitude. We do not need to use the word repent any more than we need to use any other specific terms.

When I got saved, I already knew I was a lost, condemned sinner. I asked Jesus to save me from my sins and forgive (don't remember what I specifically said). I know I did not ask Him to save me from Hell at that point - that was already my heart's cry prior to this time. I did not mention specific sins - because I was already repentant of my lying, stealing, swearing, etc. I already knew I was guilty. That night I was presented with what Jesus' dying was all about - and I turned to Him to save me and to guide my life (ie. knowing He was the Lord and He had the authority, through His Word, to tell me how to live). The repentance was already there - I was already turning from my sin (to the best of my ability, I had already stopped, my lying, stealing, etc. - I had somewhat of a works-based mentality prior to this time - though I knew I still had other sins that condemned me. When the forgiveness was offered, I gratefully took it - because I knew with all my heart there was no other hope - I was already lost and guilty before God. I had no clue what the word repent meant, but looking back, it was obvious I was repentant. God knows our hearts - and He is more concerned with our heart condition (including seeing the belief in our hearts - rather than just lip service), than with our words. Now, I do believe that it is important that we call/cry out to the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13) for salvation, but it is the repentance and belief that is important, not how or what we say - as the Lord knows our hearts more than we do ourselves.

[bzmomo7]

I don't think the specific words are important - it is the heart attitude. We do not need to use the word repent any more than we need to use any other specific terms.

When I got saved, I already knew I was a lost, condemned sinner. I asked Jesus to save me from my sins and forgive (don't remember what I specifically said). I know I did not ask Him to save me from Hell at that point - that was already my heart's cry prior to this time. I did not mention specific sins - because I was already repentant of my lying, stealing, swearing, etc. I already knew I was guilty. That night I was presented with what Jesus' dying was all about - and I turned to Him to save me and to guide my life (ie. knowing He was the Lord and He had the authority, through His Word, to tell me how to live). The repentance was already there - I was already turning from my sin (to the best of my ability, I had already stopped, my lying, stealing, etc. - I had somewhat of a works-based mentality prior to this time - though I knew I still had other sins that condemned me. When the forgiveness was offered, I gratefully took it - because I knew with all my heart there was no other hope - I was already lost and guilty before God. I had no clue what the word repent meant, but looking back, it was obvious I was repentant. God knows our hearts - and He is more concerned with our heart condition (including seeing the belief in our hearts - rather than just lip service), than with our words. Now, I do believe that it is important that we call/cry out to the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13) for salvation, but it is the repentance and belief that is important, not how or what we say - as the Lord knows our hearts more than we do ourselves.

I'd have to say that repentance was already starting when I prayed, too. Does it always come first? Can it be explained with all the other aspects of the Gospel--if so, how do you explain it in light of what God expects as a demonstration of true repentance?

[kevinmiller]

Here's something to think about: Can you be saved without a prayer?
The Ethiopian eunuch, for example.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

"The prayer" never entered into it. Salvation entails putting your full and total trust in Christ. If you get out of your pew to walk down the aisle for salvation, and Christ returns before he gets down to the front, is he taken up or left on earth? I believe that he is taken up. God knows the intent of the heart and if, at the time he gets out of his pew, he is choosing to put his faith in Christ alone and repent, then I believe he is saved at that point. Therefore, I would argue that a prayer is not essential to salvation, but a change of heart.

The Greek word for "call" in the passage "Whosoever shall call" is very interesting. The Strong's definition is this: "to invoke(for aid, worship, testimony, decision, etc.) - appeal unto, call on"
I believe that the act of "calling" is an act of the heart. Appealing unto God in repentance for salvation.

Just some thoughts...

[Jerry]

The Greek word for "call" in the passage "Whosoever shall call" is very interesting. The Strong's definition is this: "to invoke(for aid, worship, testimony, decision, etc.) - appeal unto, call on"
I believe that the act of "calling" is an act of the heart. Appealing unto God in repentance for salvation.

The heart crying out for the Lord to save him. That is still praying.