Can we talk about worms w/o opening the can??

[bzmomo7]

I certainly can understand WHY so many Christians just throw up their hands and either surrender to "anything goes" music standards' date=' or become music Nazi's that only goosestep to the "approved" sounds...[/quote']

Boy, is that a true statement!! It helps, I think, when people actually admit that there is an undefined gray area, rather than deny it and go to one of those extremes. I was under the impression before I started studying this more, that you all had it totally figured out--and actually agreed!! :haha (I should have known better) :lol

[tired]

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[bzmomo7]

:worm

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:uuhm: Didn't you know the worms were supposed to stay in the can??

[tired]

:lol: :lol

[Guest Guest]

I believe the music issue is a matter of personal preference based on what you can tell is right or wrong. Seriously, we should all have enough discernment to know that any music that promotes sin is wrong, or has a completely worldly style is wrong. If you get some Christian group together that sings something like bluegrass or whatever, and it sounds a little like the old style of "country" music... I don't believe it's wrong if those who are singing it are doing it for the right reasons.

Btw, I've heard some of what was considered "country" back in the old days (like when my parents were young...haha)... and a lot of it has the same sound as a lot of "good" Christian music today.

Oh, and just another thought... not all secular music, even today, has a "worldly" sound to it. Have you ever heard some folk music? Or... just for example, there's this one song I've heard like all over the place (and I can't stand it... I think it's really annoying.. but it's played in stores and stuff), called "Hey There Delilah" (sounds like a nice name, doesn't it? lol). It doesn't have any rock beat from what I can tell, and the music behind the words is actually very innocent, but it's definitely not music I'd put on my iPod and listen to all day. :smile

Does that make any sense, or am I just rambling? :Bleh

[speerjp1]

I think it is quite funny that some want there to be wiggle room on so many issues that are so much more clearly dilineated in the Bible, but when it comes to music, they want the strictest of standards.

Here in the Upstate of SC, there are a ton of Bible churches and Baptist churches that are closely affiliated with BJU. They hold music standards up SO high that unless you are some kind of classical professional, you cannot "perform" in their church. At the same time, most are calvinists, have little or no dress standards (I've seen one pastor a lot of you would probably know in the store wearing 70's style running shorts... gross! :gross: ), drinking alcohol isn't a problem, and the list goes on. But you dare not sing anything but Majesty Hymns or you should check up on your salvation. I've read the books by Garlock and heard the seminars at BJU and their satellite churches for years, but the music issue is always relegated to subjective standards of what is "sensual, toe-tappin', appealing to the flesh, beaty," or some other definition that can only be understood in the moment and according to the individual.

[Guest Guest]

I think it is quite funny that some want there to be wiggle room on so many issues that are so much more clearly dilineated in the Bible, but when it comes to music, they want the strictest of standards.

You're so right!

My family attended a church for a few years that had a pastor from BJU. We only went there because there wasn't any other good Baptist church to go to, and the pastor preached from the KJV on the pulpit (even though he said his favorite was the NASB), so the preaching was tolerable. They had low standards on a lot of things that I would consider to be important (the Sunday School curriculum had verses from the NIV in it), but the music standards were extremely strict. I even remember my Sunday School teacher (I was about 10 or 11 at the time) telling us about "syncopation" and comparing two Christian songs... telling us why one was wrong and the other was right. I didn't understand any of it....lol. I just thought it was a fun lesson cuz we got to listen to music in class. :lol

[zealyouthguy]

My background: VERY conservative church music history for me, but I used to listen to rock when I was backslidden, even stricter after I got right with God, but then the more I read about everyone's ideas (if it has a 2,4 vs 1, starts on an upbeat or downbeat, etc.) the more I realize that we just have to give some room for difference on music... meaning that what I won't like, someone else might, but we have to be careful not to think: taste = biblical command.

I think that there is such a wide range of things you have to consider that there isn't just a simple formula for "good christian music".

I definitely think Rock and roll, lyrics, defiance, rebellion, wildness is evil and wicked. I think that country music is the same as rock, except the country singers actually CAN sing, but it's still filled with all the same stuff. Rap = C Rap.

And I think that we DO have to take the life of the "performer" into account.

AND... There are things I might listen to at home (like some of the cathedrals stuff or something) that I wouldn't use for worship in the church.

Remember, whatever point you take something to present in church, the congregation will take to an extreme (a limited number of folks will go either to one extreme or the other).

And... having said all that, I am still very conservative, but I've given a lot more "wiggle room" for people who are also actually searching for godly music.

As far as the "sensual" argument, it's a poor argument as all music is "sensual" meaning it elicits the senses. And people react differently to different music types, based on who they are. "soft songs" make some people cry and agitate others. I think it's when music becomes SEXUAL that there is an issue. SEXUAL music is ALL rock, country, and C Rap. Some christian music I've heard is sexual in it's vague lyrics, and pounding bassline... if you aren't sure that music can be sexual, check out wayoflife.org for some of Dr. Clouds quotes from Rock performers... well, besides the fact that "rock and roll" is a slang phrase for sex in the back seat of an auto.

(and this is a big step for me) Drums aren't sinful... (I know that's a statement everyone would agree with) but drums in music isn't sinful until the beat becomes the whole purpose of the song... and yet you won't find drums in my church, because again, whatever position the church takes, people will take the extreme.

The easy answer (as I stated above) is to take one extreme position or the other... goosestep or anything goes.

[speerjp1]

My background: VERY conservative church music history for me, but I used to listen to rock when I was backslidden, even stricter after I got right with God, but then the more I read about everyone's ideas (if it has a 2,4 vs 1, starts on an upbeat or downbeat, etc.) the more I realize that we just have to give some room for difference on music... meaning that what I won't like, someone else might, but we have to be careful not to think: taste = biblical command.

I think that there is such a wide range of things you have to consider that there isn't just a simple formula for "good christian music".

I definitely think Rock and roll, lyrics, defiance, rebellion, wildness is evil and wicked. I think that country music is the same as rock, except the country singers actually CAN sing, but it's still filled with all the same stuff. Rap = C Rap.

And I think that we DO have to take the life of the "performer" into account.

AND... There are things I might listen to at home (like some of the cathedrals stuff or something) that I wouldn't use for worship in the church.

Remember, whatever point you take something to present in church, the congregation will take to an extreme (a limited number of folks will go either to one extreme or the other).

And... having said all that, I am still very conservative, but I've given a lot more "wiggle room" for people who are also actually searching for godly music.

As far as the "sensual" argument, it's a poor argument as all music is "sensual" meaning it elicits the senses. And people react differently to different music types, based on who they are. "soft songs" make some people cry and agitate others. I think it's when music becomes SEXUAL that there is an issue. SEXUAL music is ALL rock, country, and C Rap. Some christian music I've heard is sexual in it's vague lyrics, and pounding bassline... if you aren't sure that music can be sexual, check out wayoflife.org for some of Dr. Clouds quotes from Rock performers... well, besides the fact that "rock and roll" is a slang phrase for sex in the back seat of an auto.

(and this is a big step for me) Drums aren't sinful... (I know that's a statement everyone would agree with) but drums in music isn't sinful until the beat becomes the whole purpose of the song... and yet you won't find drums in my church, because again, whatever position the church takes, people will take the extreme.

The easy answer (as I stated above) is to take one extreme position or the other... goosestep or anything goes.

Very well said, ZYG. :amen:

[rancher824]

This is a very sticky subject with many. I have read from one source that the only songs in the church should be to a marching beat. We are soldiers in God's arm. I do not agree. I am not a music major. I do not know greek or hebrew. But from my understanding in the head notes of the psalms there are musical notations that make differant beats. I believe God wants this. My dad, when I was growing up, was very hard against the drums that were mentioned earlier. But then he got to looking at the psalms, and several kinds of what we would call drums are named as instruments to be used for the worship of God. There are some who say only a piano or organ can be used in the church. But where is the scripture to back this up, it is not there. The thing comes down to is it honoring to God.

I will be honest and open. I like the country beat. I feel I can sing a song to God that is to this beat and him get honour from it. The argument sometimes becomes very broken. I have heard Amazing Grace sang to the music written for a country song that I know. I have heard people say that it is not something we should touch because of what the music was origanaly written for. But, where did the music come from for Amazing Grace? My understanding is that it was a song that the slaves were singing as they were taken from there villages in Africa. It more than likely was not a christian song. My point is that we cannot say something is wrong without some basis. The rock music is surrounded by the rough look, and hard to be understood lyrics. If you have a hard time understanding what is being said, something is wrong.

I also noticed, if I understood correctly, in an earlier quote, that some believe you must be good enough to sing a special in church. Let's consider this for a moment. You have two people who want to sing specials at church. One has perfect pitch. Sings like an angel, so to speak. They are dressed inmodesty, but very stylish, as they usualy are. You know that last night they were at the bar. They are now ready to sing. The other person has a hard time staying on key. They get off tempo. They have a very worn, modest suit of clothes on. They never miss a service, unless deathly sick. The community respects them for there stand for God, though they do not agree with them (the world very seldom agrees with a stong christian.) This one is also ready to sing. Now tell me, which one will give God the most glory in there special??

[Bakershalfdozen]

I also noticed, if I understood correctly, in an earlier quote, that some believe you must be good enough to sing a special in church. Let's consider this for a moment. You have two people who want to sing specials at church. One has perfect pitch. Sings like an angel, so to speak. They are dressed inmodesty, but very stylish, as they usualy are. You know that last night they were at the bar. They are now ready to sing. The other person has a hard time staying on key. They get off tempo. They have a very worn, modest suit of clothes on. They never miss a service, unless deathly sick. The community respects them for there stand for God, though they do not agree with them (the world very seldom agrees with a stong christian.) This one is also ready to sing. Now tell me, which one will give God the most glory in there special??

Yes there are some churches who believe you have to "sing good enough" to sing a special but I've never been in a church like that.

I understand the point you are making with your scenario but not everyone is like that. I've seen and heard plenty of excellent singers who dress modestly, avoid worldly and sinful activities, and live every day to please God.

[kevinmiller]

I agree. Although, I must say, that if a person can't sing, I'd rather they let someone else do it. :wink

[zealyouthguy]

I heard one of the most beautiful voices ever sing this past weekend at a small country church in Eaton, Ohio. She was flat, monotonic, and not singing the right words. She was in the center of the choir. She caused everyone else around her to have to try harder to sing on key, because it was so off. And it was beautiful.


See, she is about 15 years old and has downs syndrome, and yet she sings in the choir to please God.

May everyone sing so sweetly and may those who God blessed with a nice voice who don't praise him, or sing hollowly and for profit, doom the day they stand before God and Brittany sings.

[rancher824]

Yes there are some churches who believe you have to "sing good enough" to sing a special but I've never been in a church like that.

I understand the point you are making with your scenario but not everyone is like that. I've seen and heard plenty of excellent singers who dress modestly, avoid worldly and sinful activities, and live every day to please God.

I am sorry if my scenario sounded like I was saying it is always that way. I know some wonderful singers that are very Godly, and modest. I was just trying to show that there are two sides to the coin. That we need to look more at the spirit than how good of a job they are doing to our ears. The ears, and eyes can be deceived.

[MilkmanDan]

I heard one of the most beautiful voices ever sing this past weekend at a small country church in Eaton, Ohio. She was flat, monotonic, and not singing the right words. She was in the center of the choir. She caused everyone else around her to have to try harder to sing on key, because it was so off. And it was beautiful.


See, she is about 15 years old and has downs syndrome, and yet she sings in the choir to please God.

May everyone sing so sweetly and may those who God blessed with a nice voice who don't praise him, or sing hollowly and for profit, doom the day they stand before God and Brittany sings.

Right on dude.

Can I say it again? Right on dude!

This lady (God Bless her!!). Sang "The Garden" the other weekend ago and her voice was broken by age. But she sang it so well it broke my heart to hear it. I felt bad because her singing was off key and again her voice was deteriorated by age. But, man it broke your heart because it was an offering she made to God and it was such a beautiful offering.

The other time (i just gotta share it was soo awesome). This other lady a little younger (prolly on her 40's) sang a song and while singing about how we persecute our savior (it was an older hymn but i forget which it was sorry) she almost broke down crying. You could see her anguish (over knowing how we broke Jesus) and yet maintained her composure (barely).

It was soo beautiful to see these examples.

They quit being "specials" for a moment and became like a moment, a love offering maybe I dunno.

I ain't trying to be harsh on anyone. I R E A L L Y do love all of y'all your my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. But I just had to add my 0.02. Thanks!