More : Crazy Calvinism

[heartstrings]

4 hours ago, SureWord said:

I had a Calvinst straight up tell me that unelected babies go to hell and that we should be thankful and give God glory for this. He was the most consistent adherent to what the heresy ultimately comes to, i.e. God fueling the fires of hell with babies. Most will stop short of this conclusion.

Yes, I've heard/read things like that too. Many teach that God is most interested in his "glory". I liken their concept of "glory to Hitler and his "third reich". The Bible says that Jesus went to the Cross "for the joy set before him" and that "joy" involves "peace and joy in the Holy Ghost". All the "peace and Joy" I ever experienced in the Holy Ghost would have involved loving babies; not watching them burn in Hell.

[Silverhair]

6 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

@Silverhair, are you using the same moniker on Baptist Boards? I thought I would ask while I was thinking about it... Thanks. 

As far as the Calvinist vs. Arminian debate, I try to stay away from such destructive issues that divide and distract from the love of Christ for his creation, and his willingness to save all who would willingly accept his free gift of salvation.

With out a doubt. 

[Silverhair]

6 hours ago, SureWord said:

I had a Calvinst straight up tell me that unelected babies go to hell and that we should be thankful and give God glory for this. He was the most consistent adherent to what the heresy ultimately comes to, i.e. God fueling the fires of hell with babies. Most will stop short of this conclusion.

FYI I am not a calvinist but I have dealt with calvinist's on other boards. Calvinism is not heresy. I would say that most have a great love for God but they error in their understanding of the means of salvation. Some are just a "bit" more zealous in their support of the TULIP / DoG.

Where they error is they start with the calvinist philosophy and then search scripture in the hope of finding a verse to support their view even if they have to twist the text or change the meaning of words.

It seems you encountered a more zealous one who trust what some man tells him the bible means rather than actually trusting what the bible actually says.

[Jerry]

1 hour ago, Silverhair said:

Calvinism is not heresy

Anything that clearly contradicts God’s Word is heresy. Most members on these boards fully understand and can refute Calvinism by going to the Scriptures. No one is saying certain Calvinists are not saved (unless they are teaching works salvation - such as persevering to the end to be saved, which some do), but we are certainly saying Calvinist doctrine is false when compared with the Bible.

[heartstrings]

7 minutes ago, Silverhair said:

FYI I am not a calvinist but I have dealt with calvinist's on other boards. Calvinism is not heresy. I would say that most have a great love for God but they error in their understanding of the means of salvation. Some are just a "bit" more zealous in their support of the TULIP / DoG.

Where they error is they start with the calvinist philosophy and then search scripture in the hope of finding a verse to support their view even if they have to twist the text or change the meaning of words.

It seems you encountered a more zealous one who trust what some man tells him the bible means rather than actually trusting what the bible actually says.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jesus went to the cross and gave Himself for every man, woman, and child who ever lived or ever will live. To say that Jesus chose some people for Heaven and chose others for Hell, like "Calvinism" does, is to deny the True and living God, because it represents the real Jesus as being a cold, selfish, narcissist. It in effect it "turns God into an image like corruptible man". The calvinist God is very similar to "Allah". I wouldn't call that a "heresy": I would call it a "damnable heresy".

[Silverhair]

19 hours ago, Jerry said:

Anything that clearly contradicts God’s Word is heresy. Most members on these boards fully understand and can refute Calvinism by going to the Scriptures. No one is saying certain Calvinists are not saved (unless they are teaching works salvation - such as persevering to the end to be saved, which some do), but we are certainly saying Calvinist doctrine is false when compared with the Bible.

Calvinists are not teaching heresy. What they are teaching is an errant view that is based on a misreading of scripture. All calvinists believe in the sufficiency of Christ in their salvation.

By using your logic "we are certainly saying X doctrine is false when compared with the Bible." All of us could at sometime be said to have taught heresy by some group that disagrees with our views. 

I have been called a heretic more then once by calvinist's because I disagree with their view.

I would say the JW's Mormons and Islam are all teaching heresy as they deny the work of Christ for salvation.

Again calvinism, as the people I have dealt with understand it, is errant but it does not reach the level of being heretical but taken to what I see as it's logical conclusion it would step over that line.

Following is a quote from Dr. Roger Olson April 19 / 2024. It is a good article that has good insights re calvinism.

"I will say it again, I consider Calvinists authentic Christians with defective theology that, if taken to its logical conclusion, makes God monstrous. Fortunately, most Calvinists do not take Calvinism to its logical conclusion and/or settle into some kind of inconsistency, claiming that God loves even those he predestines to spend eternity in hell for his glory." Roger E. Olson  https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2024/04/why-calvinism-cannot-be-true/

 

[Silverhair]

18 hours ago, heartstrings said:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jesus went to the cross and gave Himself for every man, woman, and child who ever lived or ever will live. To say that Jesus chose some people for Heaven and chose others for Hell, like "Calvinism" does, is to deny the True and living God, because it represents the real Jesus as being a cold, selfish, narcissist. It in effect it "turns God into an image like corruptible man". The calvinist God is very similar to "Allah". I wouldn't call that a "heresy": I would call it a "damnable heresy".

I would be inclined to call most calvinists confused. From what I have seen in dealing with them they do not even fully understand the foundation of their theology.

The problem is that most calvinists do not hold to actual calvinism as articulated by Augustine & Calvin etc. That would be very close to heresy as they still would not deny the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

So while what calvinists teach is in error it is not heresy. Just bad theology.

[Jerry]

What is your definition of heresy? (This reply was based on your second post above - I did not see the first until after I submitted this.) It is false teachings - still heresy (in the sense most use the word today) whether they understand it or not.

Granted, the Biblical usage of the word contains the meaning of deliberate choice. It is false teachings that many (though possibly not all) deliberately choose to believe, others certainly get deceived by it.

 

Edited April 30 by Jerry
Clarification

[Silverhair]

8 minutes ago, Jerry said:

What is your definition of heresy? (This reply was based on your second post above - I did not see the first until after I submitted this.) It is false teachings - still heresy (in the sense most use the word today) whether they understand it or not.

Granted, the Biblical usage of the word contains the meaning of deliberate choice. It is false teachings that many (though possibly not all) deliberately choose to believe, others certainly get deceived by it.

 

I think the term heresy is over used as a pejorative in the attempt to shut the other person's ideas down.

That is why I would not say calvinism is heretical but it is most assuredly in error.

This is the definition for heresy found at dictionary . com "opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine". As you can see it can be used from both parties as they determine orthodox or accepted doctrine from their own perspective.

But when I say something is in error in relation to scripture then they have scripture to contend with.

[heartstrings]

On 4/30/2024 at 1:50 PM, Silverhair said:

I would be inclined to call most calvinists confused. From what I have seen in dealing with them they do not even fully understand the foundation of their theology.

The problem is that most calvinists do not hold to actual calvinism as articulated by Augustine & Calvin etc. That would be very close to heresy as they still would not deny the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

So while what calvinists teach is in error it is not heresy. Just bad theology.

I'm sure many "calvinists" are confused having been taught this stuff in their churches. But ones like John McArthur and John Piper I would label as heretics or false teachers; I don't know the specific difference. Word definitions change over time so you will need to go to the King James and see how seriously the words "Heretic" and "Heresy" are used. I believe you will find the meaning a good deal stronger than how it's used today.

[Silverhair]

On 5/1/2024 at 4:25 PM, heartstrings said:

I'm sure many "calvinists" are confused having been taught this stuff in their churches. But ones like John McArthur and John Piper I would label as heretics or false teachers; I don't know the specific difference. Word definitions change over time so you will need to go to the King James and see how seriously the words "Heretic" and "Heresy" are used. I believe you will find the meaning a good deal stronger than how it's used today.

From the perspective of calvinists anyone that does not hold to their view could be called a heretic. {A heretic is a person who differs in opinion from established religious dogma or an accepted belief or doctrine.} https://www.merriam-webster.com

As for false teaching, that is teaching contrary to scripture. Note I did not say their opinion of what scripture says but rather what the text actually says. We have clear examples of people changing the meaning of words or using text out of context to support their view. That is false teaching.

I do not know enough about either Piper or McArthur to label them as heretics but I would call them false teachers as they should know better then to call the 5 points of calvinist biblical.

[Jerry]

Well, we are anti-Calvinists here and believe their overall theology is false - therefore from the perspective of the main IFB’ers here, Calvinism is heresy.

[Joe Chandler]

On 5/3/2024 at 10:25 AM, Silverhair said:

From the perspective of calvinists anyone that does not hold to their view could be called a heretic. {A heretic is a person who differs in opinion from established religious dogma or an accepted belief or doctrine.} https://www.merriam-webster.com

As for false teaching, that is teaching contrary to scripture. Note I did not say their opinion of what scripture says but rather what the text actually says. We have clear examples of people changing the meaning of words or using text out of context to support their view. That is false teaching.

I do not know enough about either Piper or McArthur to label them as heretics but I would call them false teachers as they should know better then to call the 5 points of calvinist biblical.

Heresy cannot be judged by understanding the point of view of any group. That kind of reasoning is called relativism. Truth is judged by the written Word of God. You seem to be concerned with the intent of the teacher instead of the teaching itself, which is very difficult to assess.  As someone once said, one can be sincere, but sincerely wrong.