The Death Penalty

[fastjav390]

And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people.- I Kings 20:42

You see here that God promises the king of Israel that since he didn't kill the king of Syria as commanded that God would punish him and the children of Israel because of it.

This makes me wonder that if the death penalty isn't carried out when a man is murdered (Genesis 9:5,6) that someone else will pay for the crime or is it that if murderers are continued to be let off the hook that they will murder again, that a culture of murder will develop that you see in some parts of the world now. In Europe we are starting to see their acceptance of terrorist attacks as part of daily life.

And what about all the millions of abortions? If it is indeed murder then sometime in the future will God require blood to be shed for all those "fetuses" aborted? A major war would be a way for the account to be settled.

Any thoughts on this or do you think it only applies to Israel under the law? 

[Orval]

Fastjav,

First I enjoy your questions.  secondly I believe this was a one time happening and not principle of God's word.  If we follow your train of thought as a legit interpretation we could quickly find ourselves on the side of Buddhism and Hinduism and reincarnation.  Just a thought.

 

[Alan]

10 hours ago, fastjav390 said:

Any thoughts on this or do you think it only applies to Israel under the law? 

I think your thoughts on are correct. As Orval mentioned, God was dealing with an incident under a king in Israel. I do not think though I want to be dogmatic about it.

God keeps good accounts and all of the murders, abortions, and other legal and moral matters that have not been settles by the legal system (either under the Law or under Grace), will be set straight at either the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Great White Throne of Judgment.

Also, I put my thoughts on the abortion fetuses on my Revelation Chapter 19-22 Study thread, page # 4, here is the link:

These are my thoughts on the aborted babies and the end result.

Alan

Edited May 9, 2017 by Alan
spelling

[fastjav390]

22 hours ago, Orval said:

Fastjav,

First I enjoy your questions.  secondly I believe this was a one time happening and not principle of God's word.  If we follow your train of thought as a legit interpretation we could quickly find ourselves on the side of Buddhism and Hinduism and reincarnation.  Just a thought.

 

Not sure why you would think this would put us on the side of Far Eastern religions. There's nothing about reincarnation in my post. I just wanted to point out that in the bible, at least the OT, when blood was shed in the land it was to be cleansed by blood. I believe there was even a sacrifice for this under the law.

 It just seems to me that if abortion is murder than America will pay for it big time down the road

14 hours ago, Alan said:

I think your thoughts on are correct. As Orval mentioned, God was dealing with an incident under a king in Israel. I do not think though I want to be dogmatic about it.

God keeps good accounts and all of the murders, abortions, and other legal and moral matters that have not been settles by the legal system (either under the Law or under Grace), will be set straight at either the Judgment Seat of Christ or the Great White Throne of Judgment.

Also, I put my thoughts on the abortion fetuses on my Revelation Chapter 19-22 Study thread, page # 4, here is the link:

These are my thoughts on the aborted babies and the end result.

Alan

I think sometimes those accounts are settled ahead of time before the judgments. In the bible nations (as well as individuals) that turn against God pay the price eventually in this world and will pay again in the world to come.

I Timothy 5:24- Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

 

[John Yurich]

The Death Penalty is totally scriptural. And it saves the tax payers money by not having to foot the bill to keep those convicted of first degree homicide in prison. The Death Penalty should be done via the electric chair only. I could easily throw the switch on the chair, turn the juice up full blast and state "fry dirty, rotten, animalistic insane murderer".

[Orval]

5 hours ago, fastjav390 said:

Not sure why you would think this would put us on the side of Far Eastern religions. There's nothing about reincarnation in my post. I just wanted to point out that in the bible, at least the OT, when blood was shed in the land it was to be cleansed by blood. I believe there was even a sacrifice for this under the law.

sorry.

 

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 8:35 AM, fastjav390 said:

If it is indeed murder then sometime in the future will God require blood to be shed for all those "fetuses" aborted

The first time I read this sentence it seemed to in infer future payment for sins done in another life time.  My apologies.  

[Salyan]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 7:35 AM, fastjav390 said:

And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people.- I Kings 20:42

You see here that God promises the king of Israel that since he didn't kill the king of Syria as commanded that God would punish him and the children of Israel because of it.

This makes me wonder that if the death penalty isn't carried out when a man is murdered (Genesis 9:5,6) that someone else will pay for the crime or is it that if murderers are continued to be let off the hook that they will murder again, that a culture of murder will develop that you see in some parts of the world now. In Europe we are starting to see their acceptance of terrorist attacks as part of daily life.

And what about all the millions of abortions? If it is indeed murder then sometime in the future will God require blood to be shed for all those "fetuses" aborted? A major war would be a way for the account to be settled.

Any thoughts on this or do you think it only applies to Israel under the law? 

1 Kings 20 speaks to a specific command of God to a specific individual. I don't think it applies to the topic at hand.

That being said, government has been given the responsibility for the 'punishment of evildoers'. We see this throughout the OT (with the exception of the Avenger of Blood - which position only existed during the Theocracy when there was no human governmental structure in place). A king, as head of the government, could thus be held responsible for his government's actions (or lack thereof).  

As to the abortion & war question... the Avenger of Blood is no longer a thing. There is no account to be settled (except perhaps with the government that no longer follows God's laws - and that's His business. Isn't that kindof what the tribulation is for?). It's not up to us, and it's certainly not an issue for a war (which would kill more than just the perpetrators). That's just off the wall.

[fastjav390]

On 5/10/2017 at 3:43 PM, Salyan said:

1 Kings 20 speaks to a specific command of God to a specific individual. I don't think it applies to the topic at hand.

That being said, government has been given the responsibility for the 'punishment of evildoers'. We see this throughout the OT (with the exception of the Avenger of Blood - which position only existed during the Theocracy when there was no human governmental structure in place). A king, as head of the government, could thus be held responsible for his government's actions (or lack thereof).  

As to the abortion & war question... the Avenger of Blood is no longer a thing. There is no account to be settled (except perhaps with the government that no longer follows God's laws - and that's His business. Isn't that kindof what the tribulation is for?). It's not up to us, and it's certainly not an issue for a war (which would kill more than just the perpetrators). That's just off the wall.

Genesis 9

[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
[6] Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
[7] And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

I don't see in this passage how that "fetuses" are excluded. They are still in the "image of God" as David made clear when he said that God "covered him in the womb" (Ps. 139:13). Are we going to say that only applies to one individual? (I realize it's a prophecy of Christ but it was still David speaking of himself also).

I'd like to point out to that verse 7 is talking about having babies. Interesting that it's in context of the death penalty.

I realize that all of this is out of my power and that the death penalty is to be carried out by the civil authorities. But I can't help feeling that this nation will pay the price for millions of babies aborted and "life for life" will be the way. 

On 5/10/2017 at 3:41 PM, Orval said:

sorry.

 

The first time I read this sentence it seemed to in infer future payment for sins done in another life time.  My apologies.  

No problem. I misread a lot of things because I tend to find myself scanning a lot of post, articles, books, etc. because I'm so busy throughout my day. 

[fastjav390]

On 5/10/2017 at 3:18 PM, John Yurich said:

The Death Penalty is totally scriptural. And it saves the tax payers money by not having to foot the bill to keep those convicted of first degree homicide in prison. The Death Penalty should be done via the electric chair only. I could easily throw the switch on the chair, turn the juice up full blast and state "fry dirty, rotten, animalistic insane murderer".

I know about the death penalty. My question was about all the murderers who are let off.  God commands the civil authorities to carry out the death penalty. If they don't will he do like he said to the king of Israel who was command to carry out the death penalty and punish them instead. Or at least allow murderers to multiple among the innocent? 

And what about aborted babies? If it's murder and there's been millions of them since Woe vs Wade, will God require it another way. 

[Salyan]

4 minutes ago, fastjav390 said:

I don't see in this passage how that "fetuses" are excluded. They are still in the "image of God" as David made clear when he said that God "covered him in the womb" (Ps. 139:13). Are we going to say that only applies to one individual? (I realize it's a prophecy of Christ but it was still David speaking of himself also)

My comment was in response to 1 Kings 20, specifically. You're jumping all over the place here.  I have no argument with the idea that the unborn are the same as the born in God's eyes, or that they deserve justice. I just disagreed with your application of 1 Kings 20.

The idea of 'life for life' speaks specifically of the life of the murdered for the life of the murdered. God doesn't punish people for what they did not do. Will God use war to punish countries? Possibly. Even probably. He's done it before. But I think it might be for a lot more than 'just' abortion. (not to downplay it, but not to make it the only factor, either.)

Anyways. What God does He will do. I think we need to be careful not to ascribe methods or plans to Him that He has not specifically informed us about, though.

[fastjav390]

1 minute ago, Salyan said:

My comment was in response to 1 Kings 20, specifically. You're jumping all over the place here.  I have no argument with the idea that the unborn are the same as the born in God's eyes, or that they deserve justice. I just disagreed with your application of 1 Kings 20.

The idea of 'life for life' speaks specifically of the life of the murdered for the life of the murdered. God doesn't punish people for what they did not do. Will God use war to punish countries? Possibly. Even probably. He's done it before. But I think it might be for a lot more than 'just' abortion. (not to downplay it, but not to make it the only factor, either.)

Anyways. What God does He will do. I think we need to be careful not to ascribe methods or plans to Him that He has not specifically informed us about, though.

 Actually, my premise is pretty straightforward. If the civil authorities don't carry out the death penalty like they are commanded by God will God allow murderers to multiply among the people. And does this include the abortion of babies if that is considered murder.

God said he would punish the children of Israel because of Ahab. He also ordered the destruction of Achan's whole family because of Achan's disobedience. So God may not punish you specifically for another person's sin but he'll still allow you to reap because of their disobedience.