Atheists and delusion

[John81]

Most countries don't make very many comments about other countries false flag operations one way or another. Governments tend to keep their secret things as secret as possible, not even raising those of other nations too often so as not to expose how widespread all covert operations are at all levels.

The major powers prior to and during WWII knew the Jews were in peril yet they rejected all avenues to help the Jews escape. Zionist Jews supported Hitler early on and both worked on plans to help the Jews migrate to Palestine. At that time Great Britain controlled Palestine and refused to allow the Jews to migrate there.

Many Jews tried to flee to England, America and elsewhere but were turned back by those countries.

Even when the Allies knew the location of concentration camps and their supply routes they refused to bomb the railways bringing Jews to the camps.

Was all this just "conspiracy theory" or were these nations actually of one basic mind in this area?

More recently American and EU (especially Germany) operatives worked inside Ukraine to foment civil unrest with the aim of forcing the democratically elected president of Ukraine to bow to American and EU demands or be ousted from office. This operation went very wrong and their involvement was quickly reported on with regards to how America/EU had supplied and prodded anarchists, neo-nazis, anti-semitics and others to overturn Ukraine's democratic election. Very quickly governments stepped in to silence these reports and prevent further reporting on the matter. Was that just a matter of "conspiracy theory" or did all these governments have a vested interest in keeping such covert operations from becoming headline news?

Typically, governments are run by the lost so why would we marvel that governments conduct their affairs based upon greed, pride, lust, lies and deceptions along with murder and a nearly anything it takes to get our way attitude? No doubt some governments are worse than others, but the same is true of serial killers too.

Whether we are talking about the American, English, Russian, Chinese, Jordianian or any other government, they are all prone to lie, deceive and manipulate to promote or thwart as they deem suits their purposes. That's just reality in this fallen world led by the lost. This is nothing new as such can be traced back thousands of years and it's just as Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun.

[Potatochip]

LIst of countries that participated in invasion of Afghanistan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_Operation_Enduring_Freedom

List of countries that participated invasion of Iraq 2003

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_–_Iraq

I don't understand how 535 members of congress.  From 50 separate states.  With the authority they are given.  Could possibly all be on the same page in a conspiracy in a free country with freedom of speech.  I don't get it.  

 

Governments are another dispensation in the Bible.  My opinion.  

 

Romans 13  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

Governments establish order in society and keep people from going after one another.  Without it their would be chaos  I actually like the government.  Doesn't matter who.  That really winds some people up LOL.  I don't do it to be part of a movement or popular.  Or for popular opinion.  Some acquaintances are every once in a while trying to get me to agree in some kind of low-down attitude towards the government.  I guess my attitude towards government isn't all that popular with some folks.  I don't care I am going to do or try to do what God said. 

I get in my big truck.  Go to the train station.  Into town.  Many crack deals going on around me.  People with guns.  I preach the gospel all day long stroll down the sidewalk.  Happy as can be greeting people.  Why Mr. Potato some have said to me I'm not going there without a machine gun. I don't have a gun, myself.  In that same area are dozens of police cars.  Police officers all armed with radios and dispatch.  I like them ok.  Because they keep me safe let me enjoy the city and evangelize.  If you look you can see Gods authority.  King David was an extraordinary in killing.  Where did that power come from?   You miss what God has does with authority.  Which I try to convey.  Your missing so much.  It's Gods power happening.  It actually makes teary eyed sometimes to see it. 

True there is Lucifer in the end he is a cast out branch the rest are honored the Kings.  This is one of the reasons we wrestle not against flesh and blood.  You have the Mystery of Iniquity  sin fallen world fallen man a lot of tragedy has happened more tragedy on the way.  He even calls the ruler a Minister of God to thee for good.  I believe its a calling.  So with that said.  That they are ordained of God.  Why should I listen to a guy that has a youtube account.  I don't care if he is a scientist or whatever that says 9/11 was a false flag.  Or some guy that writes books.  Or some Christian Identity guy promoting holocaust denial in place of what God has established or some conspiracy theorist.  They aren't government officials they are just speculators.  People listen to them some of its so absurd and defies gravity.  Some of its interesting no doubt.  I just don't look for things that aren't established or official its just wandering around in the dark to me. 

 

Edited June 24, 2015 by Potatochip

[John81]

If a hundred people are in an auditorium talking about racial issues and everyone there is very careful not to use the infamous "n-word", that doesn't mean they all sat down and talked it over and decided this would be the plan. It's simply that each has decided avoiding that word would be best for their purposes.

The same is true with governmental matters. They don't all have to get together to discuss details because they each share a common overall goal and know what is, and isn't, required to work towards that.

As well, with any large government there are always thousands of things going on that only a handful of government people know about. The rest are kept in the dark or fed disinformation.

[Potatochip]

So your saying John81.  All those countries that sent people to those wars. Based off of 9/11.  Including China and Russia.  All of congress.  The FBI, ATF  The CIA, Department of the Navy, Army, Air Force, Department of Justice the NSA.   The NYC police.  The State Patrol  NY, NY Transit authority and the FDNYC and NJ Police and Fire. All 50 governors. Those aren't 100 people in an auditorium.  They are people that have investigative and arrest powers.  Including a new opposing party Administration through 2 huge elections  are all just not saying a thing and satisfied with all the investigations conducted.  If we had a Dictator somewhere I guess but I don't know of any Dictator. The US has a worldwide reputation of being very open.  Even with scandals Nixon for instance    Investigations start with the government not the news or some anarchists with a youtube channel..  So you think 9/11 was a false flag operation is that what your saying John81?

 

Edited June 25, 2015 by Potatochip

[John81]

So your saying John81.  All those countries that sent people to those wars. Based off of 9/11.  Including China and Russia.  All of congress.  The FBI, ATF  The CIA, Department of the Navy, Army, Air Force, Department of Justice the NSA.   The NYC police.  The State Patrol  NY, NY Transit authority and the FDNYC and NJ Police and Fire. All 50 governors. Those aren't 100 people in an auditorium.  They are people that have investigative and arrest powers.  Including a new opposing party Administration through 2 huge elections  are all just not saying a thing and satisfied with all the investigations conducted.  If we had a Dictator somewhere I guess but I don't know of any Dictator. The US has a worldwide reputation of being very open.  Even with scandals Nixon for instance.  Investigations start with the government not the news.  So you think 9/11 was a false flag operation is that what your saying John81?

 

I don't recall saying anything about 9-11 being a false flag operation. We haven't been told the entire truth of the matter but I don't have any reason to believe it was a false flag operation.

Go to schools and businesses and those there know what to say, what not to say, who they can risk speaking of and who they can't, what's best left unsaid, and yet they don't have to get together to determine this because it's common knowledge among them yet to outsiders it's unseen.

Actually America isn't known worldwide for openness. They are known to bungle some things which allows "unpleasant" things to become known from time to time, but overall American government has become very secretive, especially since the creation of the Department of Homeland Security.

Many who have filed Freedom of Information Act requests have long been complaining that the government purposefully drags their feet when it comes to these and if they do finally turn over some information huge, sometimes nearly all, portions are blacked out so as to make the papers given of no value.

The devil is the father of lies and it's his "children" running the governments, the media, entertainment and more so it should come as no surprise to Christians these institutions are filled with deceit, lies, manipulations, and cover-ups.

[Potatochip]

Well the Bible never said for me to have suspicions about the government.  The NT pretty much lays out how I am to think in regards to government.  Thats what i do.  Maybe you missed this part I don't know.

 

Romans 13  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The government does one basic thing in my opinion.  It keeps order in a time of Grace.  Thats what they do.  Its doesn't exist to establish Christianity or Christian ideal.  It exists in a fallen world with fallen men and all kinds of sin.  Establishing order with all people. Including a whole bunch of people that just might want at us. It also lets us be among them preaching the Gospel  We are a Holy Nation.  A people that are no people.  

Edited June 25, 2015 by Potatochip

[John81]

The NT says we Christians are to submit to the government, obeying them so long as their orders don't prevent us from doing as God commands. We are also called to pray for our leaders and show due respect.

We are not told to blindly trust the government or anyone else.

Lost folks sin. Lost folks with power tend to take their sin to a greater degree. The government isn't a special entity, it's a grouping of mostly, and in some cases entirely, lost people. Lost government leaders, officials and workers don't leave their sin nature and their sinful ways on the steps when they go to work. Their sin nature and sinful ways go with them.

If a government leader were to come to my door I would be respectful. When the government issues laws and regulations which don't violate my living for Christ I dutifully obey them.

That doesn't mean I ignore the fact they are, for the most part, sinners engaging in sin not only on a personal level, but on a governmental level which infects local, county, State, federal and world matters. Whether reading Scripture, history or contemporary news these matters are very clear.

[Potatochip]

I dunno.  People seem to do what they want in this country.  I'll do or try to do what the Bible says.  I don't care who likes it.  Prayer works way better than activism or trying to rally some like some special interest group.   Paul didn't give a rip about the Roman government.  Neither did Jesus.  Once again the Jews wanted the anarchist.  The insurrectionist released instead of Jesus.  The mission has always been the Gospel.  Not the government that included Rome.  Now many congregations feel that the mission or part of the mission is reforming the government. Using all kinds of fears to get people involved in it.  Some congregation wants me to organize, raising money also.  Like some activist group with all the anger stirred and go after the government no thanks.  God told me to supplication, intersession and pray.   I'll do or try to do what God told me to do.  I guess storming the capitals with signs, banners, bullhorns, building websites, saying all kinds of things in public.   That's what everyone else does.  Not in the Bible but hey. I want something I ask God.  I don't want to run the govenment.  I just want to evangelize and preach the Gospel.  

So whats going on now.  Many congregations are using the same tactics the Jews used against Jesus and Paul.  The Jews were under Roman authority. That didn't stop them.  They threatened disorder.  Stirring up all the people against Jesus, Paul and the apostles.  The Romans didn't want riots and anarchy.  Why many congregations are using the same tactics why I don't know.  Your a reasonable guy John81 some people aren't and get real batty over issues.   That by the way are still being used today Media (stirring up a crowd) does it all the time even against people they don't like until they get what they want.  Governments don't want disorder.  If there is disorder they will move to create order. Governments establish order that's what they do.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Potatochip

[Invicta]

You know Bin Laden wasn't killed/captured in a cave right?  You know he had almost unlimited resources when it comes to money correct?  Hmm.

You know the twin towers fell because of fire/structural issues correct?  When metal heats it expands, then cools and shrinks, and so on and so forth.  I am a volunteer firefighter and this is basic knowledge in the fire service.  The Twin towers did withstand the impact from aircraft...the weakness was the elevator shaft and expanding/shrinking of metal.  It doesn't take much time to research this objectively.

NORAD didn't track flights in the United States before 9/11..hence, why would USAF jets be scrambled?  Or why would they be scrambled in time since there was no tracking of the flights...

I've seen the stories about those identified on passenger lists are still alive and well.  There is absolutely no proof of this and it's speculation.  There is not one photo or video of said persons.

110 storys of rubble falls on a 47 story building and you are surprised it didn't collapse from a plane?  How about the several thousands of tons of rubble that was on it...of course it collapsed!  Or, from all the fire that spread to the surrounding buildings...

I know people personally that were at the Pentagon, they saw the plane.  But, I suppose maybe all those regular people are just liars or have decided to join the government in the most impossible conspiracy known to man.  Who can be deluded into this?  Oh, I don't know, maybe the thousands of people that saw the plane circle and crash into the Pentagon...

 

I mostly agree with you,but from my recollection of watching CNN at the time.  The smaller building fell before the twin towers and fropm no apparent reason.

[ThePilgrim]

I mostly agree with you,but from my recollection of watching CNN at the time.  The smaller building fell before the twin towers and fropm no apparent reason.

Building 47 was not hit by any rubble.  It is an interesting study to watch building 47 fall and watch the demolition of a building as they both pancake right straight down onto their foundations.  Interesting indeed.

[Old-Pilgrim]

That is very worldly, so wrong and unfounded. 'what is generally accepted as reality' by most in the west is what is portrayed on TV and Media, most of which is owned by about five companies, not Government. If you are serious about what you are saying here I would recommend to you a documentary by Chris Pinto called

 

 So say for instance the Holocaust.  I am going to take the word of all of Europe, England and the US governments that it happened.  They had the investigators.  They were there.  They held a really big trial.  Another example.  The USA is pretty open government. 

Hi Potatochip

>>>So say for instance the Holocaust.  I am going to take the word of all of Europe, England and the US governments that it happened.  They had the investigators.  They were there.  They held a really big trial.  Another example.  The USA is pretty open government. <<<<

Yes but the holocost is official history because the Allied Forces won, imagine if the Nazi government would have succeeded and taken over Europe, then the events of the holocaust would have been suppressed and would only be a conspiracy theory of a few wing nuts or at least what might seem to be wing nuts to the majority who take on board the mainstream education and media. What people are saying is basicly that the Mother of Nazim & Communism has infiltrated the Gov and works covertly through the CIA & co and it hasn't been defeated as yet.

You watched that video then, I'm impressed. most of his quotes are referenced, but to check everything would be full time and hard work,  I check things up to a point, but sometimes there are historically perpetuated myths, I watched allot of alternative media documentaries, I tend to start from the big picture and work my way down to the detail, I think Chris's  are the best I've found, he sticks mostly to documented stuff and little on unprovable testimony.

I think New World Order probably does mean different things to different people, but I think the common denominator is that they all mean a world governing system of some sort, Re 13:16 'And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads...' would be one of the Biblical references to what secular people call the NWO  I think Eschatology is such a wide and vast topic that it doesn't appear so easily to everyone. I remember watching a Video with a fellow Christian, and half way through it he sot of goes 'Ah, I see it now' the big picture sort of hit him. If you will excuse a crude illustration, it is a little like a flea on an elephant trying to explain to some other fleas what an elephant is, and that they are standing on it. Actually it might be a dragon not an elephant.

All that said I do tend to try looking at it from a more spiritual view point, because no matter how much the wicked try to rebel they end up unwittingly fulfilling the words of God.

 Re 17:14-17 These shall make war with the Lamb... For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

God sort of takes the sin of man and redirects it back into vessels of His wrath.

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

Building 47 was not hit by any rubble.  It is an interesting study to watch building 47 fall and watch the demolition of a building as they both pancake right straight down onto their foundations.  Interesting indeed.

Do you mean Building 7?

[Old-Pilgrim]

It was looking into Building 7 which convinced me, there is a growing movement of Engineers and professionals urging a proper investigation into that one point, due to the official line being an technical impossibility.

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

Building 47 was not hit by any rubble.  It is an interesting study to watch building 47 fall and watch the demolition of a building as they both pancake right straight down onto their foundations.  Interesting indeed.

Hello The Pilgrim, I only used Old Pilgrim because Pilgrim was taken, don't worry about the 47 number, I often get the details wrong, if you google building 47, it still finds links to building 7.

I think one of the best documentaries on 911 is      9/11 Coincidences  It is a compilation of all different works. at least one of the contributors is a God hater, so I am not recommending them, just the general content, it probably covers just about every reasonable argument, and steers clear of some of the CHAFF. but i'm off topic. sorry.

[Potatochip]

There are all kinds of engineering explanations.  Deal is the governments not upset.  I mean the government did a thorough investigation.  These guy that have youtube channels and are engineers they don't have access and they aren't government investigators.  I just let the government do what does.  It establishes order and well I am pretty safe have never been robbed or attacked by strangers.  So I think they do a pretty good job. I did have one thing stolen in my life a vcr.  Thats it.  So they are doing what God wants them to do when he has us pray for them as far as I am concerned.  I have a peaceful life.  

Edited June 25, 2015 by Potatochip