Members DaveW Posted March 14, 2014 Members Share Posted March 14, 2014 In the 1000 year portion of the Kingdom any nation that does not come to Jerusalem(works) they will get no rain (God's grace) but instead will have drought, famine and the plague that killed the horses and camels. They have to believe this as Jesus will command it of them but they can't have faith in Jesus because he is on the throne.Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. 16 ΒΆ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Now what was that about not having works to get God's grace? Well as much as I look, I can't seem to see any personal salvation in that passage, so it would seem to be irrelevant to any discussion of salvation in this respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted March 14, 2014 Members Share Posted March 14, 2014 Works in the Old Testament had nothing to do with salvation. Β God's promise to Israel for obeying the law was two-fold... Obey the law, and God would bless them in the land. Β Disobey the law, and God would curse them in the land and ultimately drive them out of the land. Works in the Tribulation will have nothing to do with salvation. He who endures to the end simply means that those Jews who "survive" until the end of the Tribulation will be saved, because they will see the ultimate sign (Jews require a sign). Β They will see the Lord Jesus Christ returning in power and glory. Β When they see him, they will realize that Jesus Christ was their Messiah...that he died for them and rose from the dead for them, and they will accept him as their Lord and Savior. Β The patience of the saints refers not to salvation, but that the saints will have the patience not to take the mark of the beast. Β Those who keep the law (devout Jews during the Tribulation), and those who keep the faith of Christ (believers in Christ during the Tribulation). Β Both groups (Jews and believers) are called saints according to God's word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 OK, as stated there are many things hard to understand and as to how someone gets from the earth into heaven during the kingdom is one of those things. Β How does someone not saved of one of the nations described in Zac 14 get eternal life? Β Now remember Hebrews11:1 ΒΆ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.Β So Jesus Is seen sitting on the throne in Jerusalem so faith in him is not so much an issue, seeing faith is described as the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen.Β Christ work on the cross may still be a portion of how one is saved but it is not all of how they get to heaven.Β Because there will be no adding to the body of Christ obviously because that stopped at the gathering of the body of Christ into the clouds unto Jesus evermore to be with him.Β After the gathering of the body of Christ, all people who believe the kingdom gospel that comes back into play when God restarts he dealings with Israel. Β So here is where we must seek what goes on in the kingdom for the 1000 years before the great white throne Judgement.Β Very little to know but Zac 14 gives us a little idea. Β the last gospel spoken to unregenerated mankind before Christ coming was "Rev 14:6, 7 ΒΆ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,Β Β Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Β Those that remained last heard this gospel so the previous Kingdom Gospel in no longer active once it is preached.Β You must remember by this time in earths future 90% of the worlds population has been killed off. Β Alright so the remaining ones bow in worship and fearing God like you wont believe, they see that it is that Jesus you had been telling them about but they no longer can believe the Gospel of Grace because that was a pre-tribulation Gospel.Β they can no longer believe the kingdom Preparation gospel because the tribulation is over, so they are under th everlating Gospel that the angel proclaimed.Β Β Jesus Come sets up his kingdom Israels land is suddenly perfect lions and lambs living side by side, children playing with poisonous snakes but they don't bite, perfect weather, the whole country if Israel is flourishing and filed with great trees and so forth, it is just a wonderful place to be.Β It 's boarders are from the Mediterranean sea to the river Euphrates, from the the great Nile and the whole of the Sinai peninsula up to the southern boarders of Turkey.Β This was the actual land mass promise to Abraham, then Issac and then Jacob Gen 15:18-21. Β Now a Gentile wants to get to heaven, they are fearing God who is Jesus Christ sitting on the throne.Β they must come to Jerusalem and keep the feast of tabernacles as described in Zac 14, they must keep the teaching of Jesus when he taught the kingdom precepts in Matthew chapters 5, 6 and 7.Β He knows that Jesus Died for sin and any sacrifices he brings are not for his sin but an act of worship, he keeps the kingdom precepts all his life in faith of God's word that those who live by one must keep them all. By faith he believes that if he keeps those things and goes to the feasts as commanded and then dies in his faith that he will be allowed into heaven at the great white throne judgement .Β Β then at the great white throne judgement when the books are opened he is judged out of them Rev 20:11-14, but he still was not perfect and this is where the blood of Christ comes in just as the blood of sacrifices for Abraham did not make him perfect and grace was afforded him at the resurrection, so shall it be for the one in under the Kingdom.Β His name is written in the lamb's book of life (Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.) and he is permitted to enter into the New Jerusalem, partake of the tree of life drink of the waters of life, there he will get his eternal perfected body in the age they were when they died, because the leaves healed them as the word says in Rev.22:1-5 ΒΆ And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.Β Β Β In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.Β Β And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:Β And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.Β Β And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Β All of this I learned by rightly dividing the word as I studied and as the Holy Ghost taught 1Cor 2:13, 14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.Β Β But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 That's wrong division. Β Everlasting means everlasting, which is what salvation by grace through faith in Christ is, which even one of your citations points out the angel will be preaching the everlasting Gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 That's wrong division. Β Everlasting means everlasting, which is what salvation by grace through faith in Christ is, which even one of your citations points out the angel will be preaching the everlasting Gospel. That angel no where in 20 verse either direction is teaching faith on the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ. Β "Rev 14:6, 7 ΒΆ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,Β Β Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Β You are placing on the angels message the Gospel of Grace but it is not speaking of it anywhere n the context.Β this angel is not under the curse Paul said if they taught any other gospel would be, because the Body of Christ is gone, the tribulation economy is coming to an end and this angel is proclaiming the good news which says what they were to do.Β Fear God, give him glory, and worship him.Β there is no forgiveness of sins by the finished work of the cross of Christ.Β Christ is now come at the end and will set up the kingdom. Β Your the one not rightly dividing the gospels, and you are pretexting Rev 14:6,7 to be the one Paul proclaimed.Β You would have them getting saved and added to the Body of Christ when that economy is over and done with.Β No one after the gathering will be added to the Body of Christ, they will be added to the kingdom and that includes all the Gentile nations will be the kingdom ruled over by Israel with Jesus on the throne. Β And the everlasting Gospel is just that fearing God giving him glory and worshiping him.Β It was that Way for all beings before Genesis one and will be that way after Revelation 22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 Pre-Law Β Romans 4:2-3 2 Β For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 Β For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Β Β During the Law Β Romans 4:6-8 6 Β Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Β Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Β Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Β Β After the Law Β Romans 4:13-16 13 Β For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 Β For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Β Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Β Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Β Β Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Β There's no time stamp on that brother...no flesh means no flesh...can ever be justified by the works of the law. Β None from the past, none from the present, and none from the future. Β Salvation has always, is always, and will always be by grace through faith. Β Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 Β Pre-Law Β Romans 4:2-3 2 Β For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 Β For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Β Β During the Law Β Romans 4:6-8 6 Β Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Β Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Β Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Β Β After the Law Β Romans 4:13-16 13 Β For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 Β For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Β Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Β Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Β Β Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Β There's no time stamp on that brother...no flesh means no flesh...can ever be justified by the works of the law. Β None from the past, none from the present, and none from the future. Β Salvation has always, is always, and will always be by grace through faith. Β Β That is only during the Age of Grace or Church Age. Β After the gathering of the Body of Christ it reverts to the Kingdom Gospel during the trib and there it is faith plus works.Β At the close of the Trib it goes into the Everlasting Gospel and the kingdom is set up and from there they must have faith in keeping the Matt 5,6, 7 kingdom precepts, keep the feasts Zac 14. they die or the great white throne is set up and all are judged.Β those who did all and does in faith like any OT saint will have his name in the book of life because the blood of Jesus Christ makes their work complete and they get eternal life in the new Jerusalem and those who did not keep the feasts and precepts will go to everlasting fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 That is totally unbiblical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveW Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 That is totally unbiblical. Well he quoted NN and then proceeded to ignore the verses and most of what he said. He ignored the fact that Zech 14 has nothing to do with personal salvation. I agree with you John. NN - those verses are clear and certain and simply declare that works does not save and never has. Good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 NN - those verses are clear and certain and simply declare that works does not save and never has. Good work. Β Praise to the Lord! AMEN! Β In regards to Zechariah 14... Β Zechariah 14:16-19 16 Β And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 Β And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 Β And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 Β This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Β There are the results of not keeping the feast of tabernacles during the millennium...they will be PHYSICALLY punished. Β First, physically with no rain. Β If no rain doesn't get them to the feast, the LORD will send a plague to physically smite them. Β There's nothing about that having to do with salvation. Β It's similar to Israel obeying or disobeying the law. Β Obey, and you'll be blessed physically. Β Disobey, and you'll be punished physically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wretched Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 That is totally unbiblical. Β Hardly John, Although I don't have the time or inclination to read every post in this thread thoroughly and will not claim to agree with every detail of AVBB posts, I will say from what I did read that this guy is far more knowledgeable in how the Word is properly divided than 90% on this site. NN is correct that salvation is through faith alone throughout the ages however, simply stating that as if all ages were the same is non Scriptural. Sure it is what all the preachers you folks follow say but not Scriptural. Only in this age is there salvation as we know it, the new birth, regeneration of the Spirit, the indwelling and sealing of the Spirit (IE eternal security). OT and trib salvation was and will be by faith alone but that faith was and will have to be demonstrated by works and those had to maintain this faith until death. God gave signs, voices, miracles, wonders as helps to those in the OT and the will provide those helps again in the trib UNLIKE now during our age. The Spirit did not regenerate OT saints as now and He will be removed in the trib when the church is removed. Β Sure, you folks can keep changing the Word or claiming " it may say that but doesn't mean that" in all the many, many places where it does not remotely agree with your Bible blended, all the same, all the time nonsense that you have been ingrained with but that will never make it truth. Β And I am IFB and always have been but that has never meant that I follow any man's teachings simply because he is established as IFB. Many times I think they simply hold to the simplicity of Bible blending because it is easier to teach and/or requires little real thinking. It is quicker and easier to say "it may say that but doesn't mean that". Β Most of the time, I think many IFB preachers keep it simple to cater to the simple, that keeps the pews full, their simple "Jesus loves me" books selling and the tithes coming in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 I sat down and wrote out a lengthy response, but after careful consideration, I erased it. Β I will say this for myself personally (as I can't speak for anyone else), I follow no man or preacher. Β To be honest, I don't recall ever hearing a sermon or teaching from any pastor that I've ever had on the subject. Β I don't recall ever hearing a sermon or teaching on it from anyone for that matter. Β I live in a small town and rural area. Β I don't mean this to sound bad, but the majority of the preachers around here just get up and preach a Bible story for the most part...we also have a lot of what I call "Huh Preaching". Β If you don't know what that is, the preachers go "HUH!" a lot while preaching. Β Such as... Β "Now when Jesus, HUH!...went to the cross, HUH!...he was dying for the sins of the world, HUH! Β Again, I'm not mocking or poking fun at them...just stating a fact. Β That style preaching is very popular here, and there are folks here who think you're not really a preacher if you don't HUH! while you preach. Β Β All of that to say this...I didn't get this teaching from any man. Β I got it from studying God's word. Β Β I got it from seeing that man is sinful, that our righteousnesses are as filthy rags in God's sight (and I won't mention what those filthy rags are). Β Β I got it from seeing that the law was given to show man that he's a sinner...not to save him...and the law was given in the Old Testament. Β Β I got it from seeing that the only promises for Israel's obedience to the law were PHYSICAL promises...not spiritual salvation. Β Β I got it from seeing that God's grace was shed on man in the early parts through to the end of the Bible. Β I got it from seeing that nothing man can do by way of works can justify him in God's sight...NOTHING. Β I got it from seeing that to try to keep the law was futile for man, and would only condemn him. Β I could go on, but I'll stop now. Β There is nothing in the Old Testament that says a man had to add works to faith in order to be saved, and there is nothing in Revelation saying that either. Β Β Wretched, everything that you have accused me of (and others who hold the view that works have never, do not, and will never have a part in salvation)...everything that you've accused us of...I look at your post and AV's posts, and I think the same thing about that line of thinking that you hold, and as you said about our view, I say the same about yours...you can say it over and over, but that doesn't make it truth. Β In my view, one has to read between the lines an awful lot to arrive at those conclusions...and there's nothing between the lines brother. Β The Bible is clear...works can not save anyone...mixed with faith or not...it's the faith that saves.Β Β One last thing in regards to Old Testament and Tribulation salvation being accompanied by works...brother, the same can be said of us today. Β Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Β Sounds an awful lot like we Christians today ought to be performing works, doesn't it? Β Β I agree that Old Testament salvation was accompanied by works, and Tribulation salvation will be accompanied by works...just as our salvation is accompanied by works today. Β Not to be saved, but because one is saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveW Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hey NN - Can I like this twice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hey NN - Can I like this twice? Β It's the thought that counts. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 Well he quoted NN and then proceeded to ignore the verses and most of what he said. He ignored the fact that Zech 14 has nothing to do with personal salvation. I agree with you John. NN - those verses are clear and certain and simply declare that works does not save and never has. Good work. NO it has to do with works they are to do in the Kingdom. Β They would not get eternal life until the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT. Β Gentiles going to the Kingdom to worship Jesus our God and saviour with oblations and sacrifices are works in the kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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