Lucifer Was In Charge Of Music And Worship In Heaven?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Not you-the sweeping declaration part was in general to Lucifer being the leader of the Heavenly choir, etc, taken from a part of one verse.

 

And keep in mind the workmanship of pipes and tabrets was prepared in him, NOT the pipes and tabrets-the ability to work them, or play them, was prepared in him.

Interesting observation!  The ability to play the instruments.

[Todd W. White]

If the pipes and tabrets were built INTO him, it goes without saying that he would have been given the ability to operate them.

[Anon]

Not you-the sweeping declaration part was in general to Lucifer being the leader of the Heavenly choir, etc, taken from a part of one verse.

 

And keep in mind the workmanship of pipes and tabrets was prepared in him, NOT the pipes and tabrets-the ability to work them, or play them, was prepared in him.

 

No, that isn't how the grammar reads here.   I think the "workmanship" is actually trying to be very specific that the actual "workmanship" being built inside Lucifer.

 

Workmanship is a noun meaning the result of talented work.    

 

Workmanship does not mean the ability to play...otherwise we would say that someone who can play the piano has good workmanship.  No...the piano itself is either good, or poor, workmanship.

[Ukulelemike]

No, that isn't how the grammar reads here.   I think the "workmanship" is actually trying to be very specific that the actual "workmanship" being built inside Lucifer.

 

Workmanship is a noun meaning the result of talented work.    

 

Workmanship does not mean the ability to play...otherwise we would say that someone who can play the piano has good workmanship.  No...the piano itself is either good, or poor, workmanship.

So if the Lord told a carpenter, "the workmanship of thy saws and drills was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created." it would mean that they had saws and drills in them? Or that the ability to work well with saws and drills was prepared in them the day they he was created?

 

I know we hate the Greek, but the term 'the workmanship' means:

1. occupation, work, business2 occupation, business 3 property 4 work (something done or made) 5 workmanship 6 service, use 7 public business:  a  political b religious

So essentially it is saying the occupation or service of the pipes and tabtrets was, (not were, thus referring to the workmanship, not the pipes and tabrets) prepared in him when he was created. Lucifer was prepared with the ability to be about the occupation or business of pipes and tabrets.

 

And actually going this way, it does make sense that Lucifer was prepared with a musical purpose or occupation in mind. So back to the OP, there may be more merit than I gave credit for at first.

[TheSword]

Workmanship:

noun

1. the art or skill of a workman or workwoman.

2. the quality or mode of execution, as of a thing made.

3. the product or result of labor and skill; work executed.

 

m^ala'kah (Hebrew word translated "workmanship" in Ez 28:13), from multiple lexicons:

1. occupation, work, business

2. work (something done or made)

3. workmanship

4. service; use in public, business, political, or religious

 

I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle and this reference is talking about the quality of the music Lucifer produced rather than specifically the capability he had to produce it. We can infer that he had great musical talent and know that he used tabrets and pipes to do it (cannot definitively say whether they were created in him or simply used by him).

[Ukulelemike]

Workmanship:

noun

1. the art or skill of a workman or workwoman.

2. the quality or mode of execution, as of a thing made.

3. the product or result of labor and skill; work executed.

 

m^ala'kah (Hebrew word translated "workmanship" in Ez 28:13), from multiple lexicons:

1. occupation, work, business

2. work (something done or made)

3. workmanship

4. service; use in public, business, political, or religious

 

I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle and this reference is talking about the quality of the music Lucifer produced rather than specifically the capability he had to produce it. We can infer that he had great musical talent and know that he used tabrets and pipes to do it (cannot definitively say whether they were created in him or simply used by him).

Sorry-I'm going to come across as argumentative, and I mean no offense, please. However, I must disagree with your final statement. The Bible says that the workmanship of his tabrets and pipes was prepared in him-that tells me that the ability to play them, or the occupation of them was prepared in him. It never says the pipes and tabrets were prepared in him. Like calling someone a natural-born musician-how some people seem just born to play piano or violin or, well, ukulele. Seems that was literally true of Lucifer. The occupation of music was prepared in him from his creation.

 

I'd say its not really important, and I suppose its not, but it Is a part of the op, I guess, so I will make my case.

 

And as I said before, it does, then, begin to better make the case FOR the original argument, that Lucifer was created, at least in part, to be some sort of music master. 

 

However, that being said, since the Bible give no description of any other angel as it does Lucifer, we don't know that this workmanship was not prepared in ALL of them. Perhaps it is typical of all angels, or Cherubim, rather than unique to Lucifer.

[TheSword]

Sorry-I'm going to come across as argumentative, and I mean no offense, please. However, I must disagree with your final statement. The Bible says that the workmanship of his tabrets and pipes was prepared in him-that tells me that the ability to play them, or the occupation of them was prepared in him. It never says the pipes and tabrets were prepared in him. Like calling someone a natural-born musician-how some people seem just born to play piano or violin or, well, ukulele. Seems that was literally true of Lucifer. The occupation of music was prepared in him from his creation.

 

I'd say its not really important, and I suppose its not, but it Is a part of the op, I guess, so I will make my case.

 

And as I said before, it does, then, begin to better make the case FOR the original argument, that Lucifer was created, at least in part, to be some sort of music master. 

 

However, that being said, since the Bible give no description of any other angel as it does Lucifer, we don't know that this workmanship was not prepared in ALL of them. Perhaps it is typical of all angels, or Cherubim, rather than unique to Lucifer.

 

Yeah, you're right. After another read through the verse I agree with you about my last statement. I still maintain that it is an ability/talent as you state and maintain that it was not necessarily speaking of a role. One is created with an ability and for a role or occupation.

[Todd W. White]

OK - let's say that he didn't have actual musical instruments built into his being, even though I, for one, believe that he did.

 

That aside, he was obviously created for music, and, thus, would have had perfect skills in that area, because they were not learned, they were given to him bu God. Thus, everything he did for God, musically, would be perfect. And, as I think I pointed out, who better to know how to counterfeit God's standard for music?

 

Observations:

 

1. Since God created a being that had, as part of his duties, service to the Almighty in the area of music, it would be correct to state that music is NOT an a-moral thing: God created music, and, being a moral Creator, it would follow that music was created with a moral foundation.

 

2. Since Lucifer was heavily involved in the musical aspect of Heaven, it would also follow that he, once he sinned, would know how to create and promote music that violates God's design for music. Further, he would also know how to mimic it and get just close enough to make people think that his imitation was genuine, Spirit-filled music, when it actually isn't.3

 

Therefore, it is quite possible to conclude that much of what is being foisted upon the world as "Christian" music is, in actuality, Satan's counterfeit for the real thing.

[Ukulelemike]

OK - let's say that he didn't have actual musical instruments built into his being, even though I, for one, believe that he did.

 

That aside, he was obviously created for music, and, thus, would have had perfect skills in that area, because they were not learned, they were given to him bu God. Thus, everything he did for God, musically, would be perfect. And, as I think I pointed out, who better to know how to counterfeit God's standard for music?

 

Observations:

 

1. Since God created a being that had, as part of his duties, service to the Almighty in the area of music, it would be correct to state that music is NOT an a-moral thing: God created music, and, being a moral Creator, it would follow that music was created with a moral foundation.

 

2. Since Lucifer was heavily involved in the musical aspect of Heaven, it would also follow that he, once he sinned, would know how to create and promote music that violates God's design for music. Further, he would also know how to mimic it and get just close enough to make people think that his imitation was genuine, Spirit-filled music, when it actually isn't.3

 

Therefore, it is quite possible to conclude that much of what is being foisted upon the world as "Christian" music is, in actuality, Satan's counterfeit for the real thing.

With the exception of the first line, (obvious from my posts), yet I am in agreement with the rest of this post. I agree that Satan certainly was created, among other things, to make music, and thus, with his fall, has used that over time to foster his fale religions, and when the churhes began to bring his music in and advertise it as Christian, he finally got in in a place as serious as the modern Bible (per)versions.

[Ukulelemike]

Yeah, you're right. After another read through the verse I agree with you about my last statement. I still maintain that it is an ability/talent as you state and maintain that it was not necessarily speaking of a role. One is created with an ability and for a role or occupation.

I agree-it doesn't mean he was made just for that, but certainly, it is one aspect. And again, maybe they were ALL made with music in them, so they ALL gave beautiful praise to the Lord in Heaven.

[No Nicolaitans]

Thanks for everyone's input. 

 

I most assuredly agree that Lucifer was created with musical ability...whether it was an actual part of him or just his musical ability, he obviously was musical. I'm certainly in agreement that with his ability, he can (and does) influence music in the world and churches.  

 

I just can't bring myself to agree that he was heaven's music leader (and/or worship leader). I'm not opposed to it, but I just can't see enough scriptural evidence to emphatically say that he was.

 

I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts, and if you have more...please continue. 

[paid4]

Just so no one will accuse me of being a Baptist preacher who doesn't know anything about music, let me preface my comments by stating that I have a Bachelor's in Music Education, have been a minister of music, have been involved with music all of my life, and am still an active musician. Now to my reply:

 

Yes - "pipes" has to do with wind instruments, and "tabrets" refer to percussive instruments. That covers all types of musical instruments, even the electronic ones, because they mimic one or the other.

 

Lucifer was what we'd call the "top" angel in Heaven, to put it simply. He was created for a specific purpose: to present music. In our modern terms, he was the Director Of All Things Musical in Heaven.

 

Who better, then, to counterfeit God's standard for music than he?

 

As for worship and music - they "can" be used together, but most music people don't understand this, nor do most pastors. I learned a long time ago that most preacher's don't know anything about music, and most music men in our churches (or women, for that matter) don't know anything about the Bible.

 

True Worship of God, according to Philippians 3:3, is done through the indwelling Holy Spirit, and, I might mention, it does not say through music. It doesn't even say through the Word of God in this particular passage, but let me be quick to point out: the filling of the Holy Spirit is necessary in order to worship God through the indwelling Spirit, and it is not possible to be filled without confession and repentance, and that can only come as we look into the Word of God and see ourselves as God sees us, whereupon we confess, ask for cleansing, yield ourselves to His Spirit and ask to be filled, then believe that we are because HIS WORD SAYS WE ARE. Therefore, true woship can, in no way, be separated from the Word of God.

 

Most music people miss this. They felt something at the point of salvation - all of us do, though it is different for each person - and seek to have that feeling again (a sign of tremendous immaturity), and, not realizing that music, improperly used, can duplicate the feeling of being Spirit-filled without the actual filling itself! Thus, they equate the feeling with the filling, and wrongly believe that they are filled based on how they FEEL, rather than on the WORD OF GOD!

 

This is a terrible mistake, because Satan can counterfeit every aspect of salvation - except salvation itself - INCLUDING HOW WE FEEL WHEN FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD!

 

And - if he can get us to accept the COUNTERFEIT, he will have very successfully inoculated us against THE REAL THING, and, friends, when THAT happens, he gets us to REJECT true, Bible-centered, Spirit-filled worship! Thus, when we go to a church that doesn't have a mirrored ball, a karaoke machine, a strobe light, and a "praise team" (I tell our people that the WHOLE CONGREGATION is supposed to be the "praise team"), he will REJECT Bible Christianity because he has been fooled into accepting the false, rather than the genuine!

 

This, of course, is part of Satan's overall plan - to prepare mankind for the one-world religion of the antichrist by getting them to place how one FEELS above the authority of the inspired, infallible, inerrant, Holy Word of God!

 

In this era of church history where the culture is changing the church instead of the church changing the culture, the really SAD thing, to me, is that this is being allowed, yea, often pushed, by PASTORS who either don't know or don't care that music is NOT a-moral, and, therefore, MUST be under the control of the Holy Spirit, rather than the flesh! In a desparate attempt to get more people in their buildings, they are making the church like the lost world, claiming that the lost will want what we SAY we have if we get down where they live and are LIKE THEM.

 

NONSENSE! The lost instinctively KNOW that there is something worng with them, and that they need to be CHANGED! Why do you think they tatoo themselves and have metal piercing their bodies or drink, take drugs, etc? - THEY HAVE A GOD-DESIGNED NEED TO BE CHANGED FROM WHAT THEY ARE INTO THE LIKENESS OF CHRIST! But - if we offer them nothing more than a sanitized version of the life the are ALREADY living, they will REJECT IT, by and large, because, after all, who wants to give up all the "fun stuff" if all you do to be a Christian is become a little more civilized? THE LOST NEED TO BE CHANGED, not just cleaned up on the outside when the REAL NEED is to be washed by the blood of the Lamb on the INSIDE!

 

Well, I've made enough enemies for one night.

 

Going home now.

Enemies!!!!  That was awesome. I couldn't have said it better myself. I felt as if I were reading something I wrote at some point or another.

[Todd W. White]

Well, praise the Lord!

 

This matter of the culture changing the church, instead of the church changing the culture is getting really bad, even in fundamental circles. The Methodists went that way, more or less, a long time ago, as did the Assemblies of God (only worse), and it has destroyed the once great music ministries of most SBC churches, including the First Baptist Church in Dallas, which, at one time, had the finest example of a biblical music ministry one could find anywhere. The only possible holdouts I know of are the traditional Episcopalians, who refuse to allow it in their churches, all the while admitting that they are losing people because they won't go down that road.

 

I might also add that - and this will probably cause a fight of some kind - that, I am convinced, that the music style and the use of electronic amplifiers to generate infra- and ultrasonics causes the the bodies of those present to generate chemicals that make them feel good. That "feeling"  I was talking about comes from the FLESH, not the Spirit.

 

Now - I know what I'm talking about: I was in the profesional audio business for 25 years, and I installed a LOT of sound systems in a lot of churches, and in the ones that use the rock music, I am convinced that's what is happening.

 

In short, they've become drug addicts - addicted to the high they get from the response of their flesh to the sensual music, and Satan has deluded them into believing that it's the filling of the Holy Spirit!

 

Talk about a con job! That guy is gooood at it!

[Ukulelemike]

Well, praise the Lord!

 

This matter of the culture changing the church, instead of the church changing the culture is getting really bad, even in fundamental circles. The Methodists went that way, more or less, a long time ago, as did the Assemblies of God (only worse), and it has destroyed the once great music ministries of most SBC churches, including the First Baptist Church in Dallas, which, at one time, had the finest example of a biblical music ministry one could find anywhere. The only possible holdouts I know of are the traditional Episcopalians, who refuse to allow it in their churches, all the while admitting that they are losing people because they won't go down that road.

 

I might also add that - and this will probably cause a fight of some kind - that, I am convinced, that the music style and the use of electronic amplifiers to generate infra- and ultrasonics causes the the bodies of those present to generate chemicals that make them feel good. That "feeling"  I was talking about comes from the FLESH, not the Spirit.  Endorphins

 

Now - I know what I'm talking about: I was in the profesional audio business for 25 years, and I installed a LOT of sound systems in a lot of churches, and in the ones that use the rock music, I am convinced that's what is happening.

 

In short, they've become drug addicts - addicted to the high they get from the response of their flesh to the sensual music, and Satan has deluded them into believing that it's the filling of the Holy Spirit!

 

Talk about a con job! That guy is gooood at it!

[heartstrings]

A rock concert is a worship service....they worship sin and pride in all it's horrible ugliness as if it's something beautiful.