Lo! He Comes With Clouds Descending,

[JerryNumbers]

Actually "if" some view or part of a view wasn't a part of Christianity until relatively recent history, that would be a very important thing to point out.

 

As well, "if" such a claim could be proven incorrect, then that would force the discussion in another direction.

 

Some views regarding the end times are difficult to study due to so much material out there of a more modern variety that is clearly biased in favor of, or against, this or that particular point or view. As well, much of what is available is rather muddled because an author will claim his view is correct and point to early Baptists or "pre-Baptists" claiming they held the same views, but then when one follows up on those claims there is no evidence what the author claimed is actually true. In some cases one finds out that those an author claimed held to the same view he does, actually held to something entirely different.

 

I've read countless books and articles and done extensive internet studies and while there are some things which seem rather clear, there are other matters which are not.

 

Please keep in mind, we do not follow history, we follow the Bible & its truths.

 

The Bible, its 100% true, as for history, its only a mans opinion.

 

Its the Bible;

 

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

Not history or history books that's profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[Invicta]

Sorry, but your not bringing Baptist teachings to this board & you have not been taught Baptist teachings, Bible doctrine, Bible truths. If that's what you've been taught in that church you need to move on finding another one that proclaims the whole truth. Its sad a church with the name Baptist on it would teach such a thing.

 

 

Because American Baptists have adopted a Brethren teaching for the last 100 years, does not make it Baptist doctrine.  It is taught by many charismatics, but that doesn't make it charismatic teaching either.  

[JerryNumbers]

All you know to do is make the very same old accusations for you do not know how to defend those teachings.

 

I will try & be nice & try to help you instead of doing as you do, making accusations.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16

“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall first rise: Them we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

 

 C. It is impossible for Christ to come with His saints unless He first comes for His saints-

{1st phase of His coming: He comes for His saints, we meet Him in the air}

 

{In the 2nd phase: He is coming with His saints}

{the 1st phase he comes to reward His saints}

In the 2nd phase He comes to rule}

 

{in the 1st phase He comes before the tribulation}

{in the 2nd phase He comes after the tribulations}

 

{in the 1st phase He delivers us from the tribulations}

{in the 2nd phase He puts an end to the tribulation}

 

{in the 2nd phase He comes as a bridegroom for His bride}

{in the 2nd phase He comes as King of Kings, Lord of Lords}

 

In the first phase He comes to raise the dead in Christ}

{in the 2nd phase He comes to destroy the anti-christ}

 

3. Let us take notice of Hebrews 9:28

“So Christ once offer to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

 

 A. Notice it say, “unto them that look”-

  1. Believers will see Christ-

  2. Unbelievers will not see Christ-

 

Add this to> my previous post & you will have it right.

[Covenanter]

 

All you know to do is make the very same old accusations for you do not know how to defend those teachings.

 

I will try & be nice & try to help you instead of doing as you do, making accusations.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16

“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall first rise: Them we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

 

 C. It is impossible for Christ to come with His saints unless He first comes for His saints-

{1st phase of His coming: He comes for His saints, we meet Him in the air}

 

Why "first phase" ? What that Scripture teaches is that Jesus comes with the dead believers, for their resurrection, while living believers are instantly "resurrected" without dying. The Thessalonians were concerned about those who had died - would they in some way miss out on the Kingdom?

 

Presumably the Corinthians had a similar problem. Paul makes it very clear that the resurrection is our hope. Whether we "sleep" or live, we will all be changed when Jesus returns.

 

Developing that Scripture into a 2 phase coming, with 2 comings separated by "the" tribulation is reading too much into a verse. It IS reading in, not reading, or even interpreting the Scripture. Read on in 1 Thes, & on to 2 Thes, 2 & you will see that the first "phase" is actually his coming for the temple destruction, fulfilled in AD 70. Mat. 21, Mark 12, Luke 20 .

 

Mark 12:1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. 2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty. 4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and woundedhim in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled. 5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some. 6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. 7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours. 8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. 9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. 10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: 11 this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

 

  Notice v. 12 - the Jewish leaders understood the parable - spoken against THEM, not some future generation.   

 

{In the 2nd phase: He is coming with His saints}

{the 1st phase he comes to reward His saints}

In the 2nd phase He comes to rule}

 

But you have already said: "{1st phase of His coming: He comes for His saints, we meet Him in the air}" but that ignores the previous verses:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 Paul's resurrection "first phase" is God bringing his sleeping (dead) saints, obvious coming with them, to bring about the eternal state. (Their reward.) You MUST read the Scriptures before imposing your interpretation. 

 

{in the 1st phase He comes before the tribulation}

{in the 2nd phase He comes after the tribulations}

 

{in the 1st phase He delivers us from the tribulations}

{in the 2nd phase He puts an end to the tribulation}

 

{in the 2nd phase He comes as a bridegroom for His bride}

{in the 2nd phase He comes as King of Kings, Lord of Lords}

 

In the first phase He comes to raise the dead in Christ}

{in the 2nd phase He comes to destroy the anti-christ}

 

3. Let us take notice of Hebrews 9:28

“So Christ once offer to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

 

 A. Notice it say, “unto them that look”-

  1. Believers will see Christ-

  2. Unbelievers will not see Christ-

 

Heb. 9:28 does NOT say unbelievers will not see Christ. You've missed out a verse:

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.  

The dead unbelievers face judgment after death. Will they see Jesus when he comes to raise the dead for judgment? What did Jesus say?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 Is that a very long "hour" ? Paul writes to the Thessalonians:

2 T. 1:7 and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

That leaves no room at all to read in a future tribulation other than hell, nor a future millennium ending in world war. Jesus' second coming is not the the beginning of a two phase end times scenario lasting 7 years plus 1,000 years. The eternal state - NH&NE is brought into being by his coming. As Peter makes clear:

2 Peter 3:7 but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

 The Lord's coming ENDS the 1000 years, & begins the NH&NE. 

 

 

Add this to> my previous post & you will have it right.

 

[John81]

I appreciate all the inclusion of Scripture. This is much better than what often occurs elsewhere with opinions and personal jabs dominating such topics.

[Covenanter]

 

When He comes for His own every eye will not behold Him.

 

Wow, why do people get so confused about this? I know, it can be confusing, yet how many times do the same ones keep getting it wrong?

 

Here is a good look & explanation how that will be.

 

1. Jesus’ second coming is in two phases, we all get a bit confused about this at times-

 A. At first Jesus comes back for His own, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-57-

 B. Later on Jesus comes back with His own to take His rightful place on David’s throne, Isaiah 9:7 page 721-

 C. The first phase of His coming is commonly called “The Rapture of the Church”-

  1. While the 2nd phase is commonly called the “Revelations”-

 

  The verses we just read is speaking about when Jesus’ comes in the air for his own, we commonly refer to as the rapture-

  We could also read about it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, page 1227-

 

2. While reading thru the Bible there seems to be some contradictions, that can only be understood if one understands the 2 phases of Jesus’ coming-

 

For instance, Revelations 16:15 reads:

“Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepth his garments, least he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

 

Them in Revelations 1:7 we find:

“Behold, He cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him and all kindards shall wail 

 

Why do disps stop reading 1 Thes. before they get to ch. 5 ?

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

  What is the "day of the Lord" ? Surely the "coming of the Lord" Paul has been explaining in 1T4. When Jesus comes with & for his saints, it will mean trouble for the ungodly. There weren't ready, they though they were living in peace & safety. Paul is not teaching that Jesus is coming secretly to remove all the believers, leaving the children of darkness to wonder what has happened. How could they miss a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God ?

  

Jesus himself explained:

Mat. 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 and shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

Jesus has carefully explained the warning signs for his coming to destroy the temple, so that the believers can escape the city before that destruction. Now he explains about his final coming - a coming without warning, as unexpected as a thief breaking in. Unexpected by the ungodly, who will suffer the judgment of hell. (v. 50-51)

 

We look for his coming, but cannot predict it. The injunction to us is: watch & pray.  

 

 

[ASongOfDegrees]

Because American Baptists have adopted a Brethren teaching for the last 100 years, does not make it Baptist doctrine.  It is taught by many charismatics, but that doesn't make it charismatic teaching either.  

Who cares. 

[JerryNumbers]

 

 

 

All out of contest, please go back to the Bible, believing the Bible instead of man.

[Covenanter]

All out of contest, please go back to the Bible, believing the Bible instead of man.

My post is all Bible, in context - what teaching of man are you seeing in my post?

[John81]

Who cares. 

Apparently many folks because this same sort of thing is used in concern with music and other issues.

[John81]

All out of contest, please go back to the Bible, believing the Bible instead of man.

If it's out of context, how so? What is the proper context? These are fairly large quotations of Scripture so if one is going to say they are out of context, the proper Scriptural context needs to be provided for comparison.

[JerryNumbers]

My post is all Bible, in context - what teaching of man are you seeing in my post?

 

You used Bible verses out of context to proclaim what you believe.

[Covenanter]

Covenanter, on 02 Dec 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

My post is all Bible, in context - what teaching of man are you seeing in my post?

 

You used Bible verses out of context to proclaim what you believe.

 

No, Jerry, I used the Bible verses which whoever you were quoting took in isolation to support his & your dispensationalism, but in the context. Go back & read my posts & show me where the passages refute what I am teaching from them.

 

You are imposing dispensationalism on Scripture, & using isolated verses to support that doctrine. The context refutes your doctrine.

 

A few posts ago #18 you wrote in reply to Invicta:

 

All you know to do is make the very same old accusations for you do not know how to defend those teachings.

 

I will try & be nice & try to help you instead of doing as you do, making accusations.

I have shown fully how to defend what I teach, without quoting any other teacher. If you were to read your source, & the Scriptures he quotes as passages rather than isolated verses, you would see what these Scriptures actually teach.

 

I read in David Wilkerson's book "Beyond the Cross & the Switchblade" how he teaches dispensationalism. I'm quoting from memory.

 

Read through this outline of end times teaching to get the idea, without looking up the Bible passages quoted. Only then read the Scriptures quoted.

The same Scriptures are always used to "prove" the doctrine, but if you read them properly they don't. Try it.

[Covenanter]

Awaiting your response from Scripture, Jerry.

[Invicta]

I find it hard to understand why a well known hymn which I posted and which shows Christ's glorious return has engendered such controversy.

 

It is enough for me that Jesus Christ will return with his mighty angels and we will meet him in the air and he will take vengeance on his enemies, and we will be like him and be with him forever.  Halelujah.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Invicta