Hair And Cover

[Ukulelemike]

My point with the comment about the Nazarite, was that they way one could tell someone was a Nazarite if they saw them on the street, was that they did not cut their hair during the entire time of their Nazarite vow. Thus, they would probably have pretty long hair, depending upn the length of the vow. If their vow was only 6 months, their hair should still be obviously long enough to tell, otherwise what is the purpose of the sign? And if everyone had long, shoulder-length hair, how does one tell a Nazarite from everyone else? If everyone wore their hair like we see in the paintings, the sign of the Nazarite would make no sense.

 

It is an interesting fact that the on;y people pointed out as having specifically long hair in the Bible were Absalom and Samson. Samson had a Nazarite vow, but so did John the Baptist, but we never read about John's hair length. Why these two? Because they were so rebellious and I believe the mentioning of the hair has something to do with that. Absalom of course had not vow, he just wore his hair lng like a woman, and how odd that the Lord would use it to be his death. We do well to notice what scrioture has to say about certain things when they so stick out in scripture.

[Arbo]

And if everyone had long, shoulder-length hair, how does one tell a Nazarite from everyone else? If everyone wore their hair like we see in the paintings, the sign of the Nazarite would make no sense.

 

 

Unless shoulder-length was the norm, and longer than shoulder-length was considered long by the standard of the day.

[TheSword]

Unless shoulder-length was the norm, and longer than shoulder-length was considered long by the standard of the day.

 

Except that it wasn't. The common Jewish custom was to be cut short or cropped in contrast to the long hair and/or shaved heads of the surrounding pagan cultures. Early Rabbinic literature attests that kings had their hair cut daily, the high priest weekly, and the regular priests monthly and it was often done in the Lulian/Julian style in which the top of one row of hair touches the root of another. That can hardly be considered long. Additionally, and more applicable to this discussion is that a first-century archaeological find revealed the length of the man's hair was 3-4 inches on average (probably would not hang past the ears for most people), confirming short hairstyles were the norm, or at least well-represented. As Jesus was, by all accounts, a normal- and unremarkable-looking Jew, it is highly unlikely that he had long hair as popularly depicted in Greek and other early European paintings.

 

"What ifs" are fine when there is nothing to say whether things were one way or the other. However, when the Biblical, historical, and archaeological data is consistent about something then there is no room for speculation. In this case, it is well attested that ancient Jews normally had short hair or were expected to.

[bzmomo7]

Except that it wasn't. The common Jewish custom was to be cut short or cropped in contrast to the long hair and/or shaved heads of the surrounding pagan cultures. Early Rabbinic literature attests that kings had their hair cut daily, the high priest weekly, and the regular priests monthly and it was often done in the Lulian/Julian style in which the top of one row of hair touches the root of another. That can hardly be considered long. Additionally, and more applicable to this discussion is that a first-century archaeological find revealed the length of the man's hair was 3-4 inches on average (probably would not hang past the ears for most people), confirming short hairstyles were the norm, or at least well-represented. As Jesus was, by all accounts, a normal- and unremarkable-looking Jew, it is highly unlikely that he had long hair as popularly depicted in Greek and other early European paintings.

 

"What ifs" are fine when there is nothing to say whether things were one way or the other. However, when the Biblical, historical, and archaeological data is consistent about something then there is no room for speculation. In this case, it is well attested that ancient Jews normally had short hair or were expected to.

I think this is very interesting.  Know of any good books or links to on-line info where people could research it further?

[TheSword]

I think this is very interesting.  Know of any good books or links to on-line info where people could research it further?

 

I'll have to dig back through sources and research to find that specifica data again, but a couple of really good books for similar information (I can't remember if the hair specifically was in there or not) are:

 

New Testament: It's Background and Message by Thomas D. Lee and David Alan Black (first few chapters have the good background and context info), ISBN 978-0-8054-2632-8 (you can put this number into a search on Amazon and it will pull it up for you easily)

 

Jewish Backgrounds of the New Testament by J. Julius Scott, ISBN 978-0-8010-2240-1

[Ukulelemike]

Except that it wasn't. The common Jewish custom was to be cut short or cropped in contrast to the long hair and/or shaved heads of the surrounding pagan cultures. Early Rabbinic literature attests that kings had their hair cut daily, the high priest weekly, and the regular priests monthly and it was often done in the Lulian/Julian style in which the top of one row of hair touches the root of another. That can hardly be considered long. Additionally, and more applicable to this discussion is that a first-century archaeological find revealed the length of the man's hair was 3-4 inches on average (probably would not hang past the ears for most people), confirming short hairstyles were the norm, or at least well-represented. As Jesus was, by all accounts, a normal- and unremarkable-looking Jew, it is highly unlikely that he had long hair as popularly depicted in Greek and other early European paintings.

 

"What ifs" are fine when there is nothing to say whether things were one way or the other. However, when the Biblical, historical, and archaeological data is consistent about something then there is no room for speculation. In this case, it is well attested that ancient Jews normally had short hair or were expected to.

Its a sad fact that many Christians are either afraid to supplement their Bible knowledge with history, or will take history over Bible, one extreme or the other. Yet history, not revisionist, of course, is an excellent way to sometimes gain greater understanding of the Bible.

 

We tend to think of the things of the past according to our way of thinking and acting today, but that is often a great error.  For instance, I believe one reason it is easy for some to believe that, being merely adopted into the family of God, we can then lose that salvation. But when one understands that an adopted child is every bit a leagl child as a natural born child, and one cannot 'un-adopt' an adopted child, (which was actually seen recently in the news), we can see how permanent our adopted position really is.  Or the idea of the inheritance we have in Christ-today, parents boast how they are spending their kids' inheritance, but in the past, an inheritance was a done-deal and considered owed to the children. We see this fact in the story of the prodigal son, that he demanded his inheritance and was given it.

 

So, in this issue, where the Bible tends to be silent, we can see from history how they wore their hair. I relied a lot on historical content when I did my study on the haircovering, since really, the Bible says very little overall. There are a lot of assumptions out there that I was able to remove through historical supplementation. I foudn there were things occurring that woulkd bring about the question of the hair covering being worn, I learned that harlots DID, actually, wear head covers and veils, and I learned that Christians may have probably not used the ctatcombs as meeting places to hide, that the 'Christian art work' is actually pagan Greek art.  

 

Study to shew thyself approved doesn't have to mean JUST scripture. Study that which is relevant to the subject, which we see done well by TheSword, here.

[bzmomo7]

In addition to what ASOD said; in first century Greece (likely the rest of Rome as well), married women wore a head covering (like a scarf or a veil that didn't cover the face) as a display of respect, submission, and deference to their husbands. This was done primarily in official religious or political venues but also in some social gatherings as well. Unwed women did not wear such a head covering. Additionally, priestesses of some pagan gods like Aphrodite and Demeter often shaved their heads. In 1 Corinthians, Paul was dealing with a little bit of chaos and contention brought about by the coalescing of these factors. For whatever reason, women who would normally be expected to wear a head covering were not and it was causing strife in the church. This parallel isn't exact, but imagine if a man's wife today decided to stop wearing her wedding ring and start cutting her husband off in the middle of every point he tried to make in a Sunday School/Adult Bible Study class.

 

 

Re Christ's hair length:  Never said anything about the Nazarites. Shoulder length, as portrayed in most images of Him through the centuries. 

 

You say it is a Biblical standard.  Where (chap/verse) in Scripture are the definitions of the length of short and the ​length of long?   What is accepted by society is what determines that.

I think maybe the point some people are trying to make is not that there is a hair length measurement given in the Bible, but whether or not a woman's hair length is long enough to be distinguished from her husband's hair length and that of other men, in such a way that it communicates a "display of respect, submission, and deference" to her husband or father if she isn't married....that her hair length is symbolic of her willing submission.  Really, we are on a minor aspect of a bigger topic:  a woman is subject to her husband.  Period.  Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and they conception; in sorrow though shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." 

[JerryNumbers]

Sorry, Jerry. But your two verses do not prove Christ had short hair.

Your logic is just as fallible as saying the disciples were of one accord so they all ate peanut butter on Tuesdays.

 

Logic, its not my logic, sorry, but your using human logic, not godly wisdom from above, while disagreeing with God. Maybe you should throw the peanut butter out the door, & forget about it, & stay with the Word.

 

The verse is quite plain.

 

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

 

And the Bible is:

 

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[JerryNumbers]

Seriously now, you gleaned from my comment (which was a general observation) that I am for abortion?  

 

No, I did not, yet to many will think you are if your wearing Komen pink, & support Komen with you money, that your supporting abortions.

 

And of course if you give them money its will be supporting a charity that supports abortion & your money may go to supporting abortion.

 

And it seem you did not rightly read my reply to you, I'm posting it below.

 

Read the article, do you want to support an outfit that supports abortions?

 

Once again here is a link to the article.

 

I asked a question, I did not say what you are doing.

 

I hope I answered you question & you will stop accusing me of doing that which I did not, & realized I asked a question & forgot to put a question mark at the end. I apologize for placing a period there instead of a question mark.

[JerryNumbers]

Except that it wasn't. The common Jewish custom was to be cut short or cropped in contrast to the long hair and/or shaved heads of the surrounding pagan cultures. Early Rabbinic literature attests that kings had their hair cut daily, the high priest weekly, and the regular priests monthly and it was often done in the Lulian/Julian style in which the top of one row of hair touches the root of another. That can hardly be considered long. Additionally, and more applicable to this discussion is that a first-century archaeological find revealed the length of the man's hair was 3-4 inches on average (probably would not hang past the ears for most people), confirming short hairstyles were the norm, or at least well-represented. As Jesus was, by all accounts, a normal- and unremarkable-looking Jew, it is highly unlikely that he had long hair as popularly depicted in Greek and other early European paintings.

 

"What ifs" are fine when there is nothing to say whether things were one way or the other. However, when the Biblical, historical, and archaeological data is consistent about something then there is no room for speculation. In this case, it is well attested that ancient Jews normally had short hair or were expected to.

 

 

It seems to me long hair began back in the 60's in our modern day times & was a big sign of rebellion against that which was right. I remember it quite well yet I never joined in with the rebellious in hair length nor the way they dressed.

 

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

 

And one thing for sure in this day there's much rebellion against God's way. Many do as they did in the days of Judges.

 

Jg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Every atheist I have ever known has wore shoes.  Better get rid of your shoes or you might be mistaken for an atheist.

Every buddhist monk is bald.  Better never let that hair fall our or you might be mistaken for a buddhist monk.

Every JW goes grocery shopping, better stop going to the store.   Don't want to imitate the JW's.

The pink ribbon does not represent Komen.  It represents breast cancer awareness.

[JerryNumbers]

Every atheist I have ever known has wore shoes.  Better get rid of your shoes or you might be mistaken for an atheist.

Every buddhist monk is bald.  Better never let that hair fall our or you might be mistaken for a buddhist monk.

Every JW goes grocery shopping, better stop going to the store.   Don't want to imitate the JW's.

The pink ribbon does not represent Komen.  It represents breast cancer awareness.

 

There you go again. And this will be my whole reply.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I was trying to make a point, but I reckon you did not get it.

No matter what we do, where we go, there will be lost people doing the same.

What sets us apart is not necessarily what we wear, but what is in our hearts.

If one is going to take a stand against ribbons that represent breast cancer awareness because a company that promotes abortion wears the same color, then me need to be consistent and take a stand against wearing any colors of any kind since evil people use those colors too.

We need to stop shopping in stores since we don't know that the money we spend on groceries isn't used to buy alcohol from a beer vendor.  Or stop buying gas for our cars since those same gas stations have alcohol that they sell inside and the money we give for gas may be used to pay for that alcohol vendor.

Better live a monastic life.

No, instead of being so critical over a Christian's choice to wear a ribbon to represent his or her concern for breast cancer, spend time praying for the crooked pastors around the world.  Pray for God's intervention in Churches where Christians are living in oppression and bondage to rules and regulations that God never endorsed.

[swathdiver]

No matter what we do, where we go, there will be lost people doing the same.

What sets us apart is not necessarily what we wear, but what is in our hearts.

If one is going to take a stand against ribbons that represent breast cancer awareness because a company that promotes abortion wears the same color, then me need to be consistent and take a stand against wearing any colors of any kind since evil people use those colors too.

We need to stop shopping in stores since we don't know that the money we spend on groceries isn't used to buy alcohol from a beer vendor.  Or stop buying gas for our cars since those same gas stations have alcohol that they sell inside and the money we give for gas may be used to pay for that alcohol vendor.

Better live a monastic life.

No, instead of being so critical over a Christian's choice to wear a ribbon to represent his or her concern for breast cancer, spend time praying for the crooked pastors around the world.  Pray for God's intervention in Churches where Christians are living in oppression and bondage to rules and regulations that God never endorsed.

 

I gather you think it's fine to participate in Halloween too?

[JerryNumbers]

I was trying to make a point, but I reckon you did not get it.

No matter what we do, where we go, there will be lost people doing the same.

What sets us apart is not necessarily what we wear, but what is in our hearts.

If one is going to take a stand against ribbons that represent breast cancer awareness because a company that promotes abortion wears the same color, then me need to be consistent and take a stand against wearing any colors of any kind since evil people use those colors too.

We need to stop shopping in stores since we don't know that the money we spend on groceries isn't used to buy alcohol from a beer vendor.  Or stop buying gas for our cars since those same gas stations have alcohol that they sell inside and the money we give for gas may be used to pay for that alcohol vendor.

Better live a monastic life.

No, instead of being so critical over a Christian's choice to wear a ribbon to represent his or her concern for breast cancer, spend time praying for the crooked pastors around the world.  Pray for God's intervention in Churches where Christians are living in oppression and bondage to rules and regulations that God never endorsed.

 

What is in your heart should show up fully on the outside, for instants, long hair on man is a shame just as the inspired Word of God tells us.

 

Ro 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

Ro 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Ro 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

 

The majority of people will never set down& talk with you, they will only see you, & their impression will be what they see, & if we are not obeying Christ in all ways we are not being a good witness for our Lord.

 

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

 

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart

 

Only what's in the heart is only an excuse, an excuse to do as you please, yet it does not pass the test.