Who I am and what I am looking for...

[dskysmine]

Which moral issues have I said that Baptists do not agree on?

You mentioned homosexuality. Probably there are others?

So, what you are saying is that you have confidence that you will spend eternity in heaven with God someday...that you do not dread his wrath. We all struggle with sin as long as we are on earth. But that sin has already been paid for. We do not have to pay for it; we will not be punished for it, because Christ took all that punishment on himself. He experienced God's wrath so that we do not have to do so.

I pay dearly every day for the effects of my sins... as well as the people that I sin to/with.

If you read this verse in context of the whole chapter (really, of the whole letter), you will see what I am talking about.

Again, read this admonition in context of the whole of Scripture, Daniel. It is obvious that no one can obey God perfectly. If this was all we had to go on, we'd all be miserably doomed. Christ lived a sinless life on our behalf, and then died for our lawlessness, making it possible for sinners to enter his kingdom. I know we agree on this point.

Anyway, Christ's point here is merely that those who follow him "with their lips" and not with their heart are not really his children. If we love him, we will want to obey him. Will we do so perfectly? Not a chance of it. But our transgressions are done away with by his sacrifice.

Then please help me with this: A homosexual that lives with his partner comes to you and says "I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord and Saviour of my Life and that He redeemed all my sins". Will you believe he is saved? Why?

Did you read verse 11? It looks like you are just pulling verses right out of their proper context and using them to prove a point. I grew up in a family which did that (we believed that we could lose our salvation, and would pull out isolated verses to "prove it"). It is only when I began to view Scripture as a unified whole that I got past this sort of dabbling and doubting.

I am reading it as a unified whole... what am i missing?

Daniel, I have enjoyed our interaction; thanks for the discussion. But I do need to step away from the computer and get some things done now. I hope you find what you are looking for here. My biggest desire for you is that you will have peace in your heart, and that you will trust in the finished work of Christ for eternal salvation, not depending on yourself but in faith believing that your sins, past, present, and future, have been taken care of by Christ's finished work on the cross.

Phillipians 2:12-13...

I'm sorry, I'm even more confused now. I've only been a Christian for a short time. Can you tell me in your own words please? How will you get to heaven?

What do you mean with "how"? It's not like I die and I start a 10 day trip floating till I find the gates of Heaven....
I told you the answer that Jesus Himself told to those who asked the same question. Is it not enough?

The church is the body of believers - the local church. One fellowship of born-again believers, meeting together in an organized fashion as God directed for worship and fellowship. There are many local churches - some have retained true doctrine, and some have allowed false doctrine to creep in. Some no longer teach the true gospel of Christ and should not properly be termed churches - but they retain the name. How do we know true doctrine? From the Bible.
In a larger sense, the 'true church' will contain everyone who has been born again by faith alone in Christ's atoning sacrifice. However, that church will not meet until we are all together in heaven. For right now, today, a true church - a good church! - will teach the true gospel and the whole counsel of God. You will not find a denomination or a label that will cover all good churches. Look instead for one good local church.

What is the "true gospel" and the "counsel of God"?
That's pretty gloomy... How am I supposed to recognize a good local Church if I do not know the "true Gospel" or the "counsel of God"? How do I know what are the false doctrines?
One in Christ,
D

[JerryNumbers]

With regards to the King James Bible, if you take note it was said the the KJB is the preserved word of God for English speaking people. That doesn't leave out non-English speaking folks, as there are Bibles in other languages which were translated from the same preserved line as was the KJB.

I know many who speak both German and English who use the German Luther Bible and the KJB.

As for me, I am not in the position to state what Bible people that speak other languages than English should use. I know that many of our English speaking brother & sister will use that though about what Bible those that do not speak English should use to try & tear the KJ Bible to pieces while trying to get everyone to accept all of the modern versions, saying we have to use all version in order to pick out what God wants of us. They use this thought because its handy, & easy to use.

All I know is that we English speaking people ought to use the KJ Bible. I will let God, & His Holy Spirit, guide those who He has called that do not speak English guide His people to the Bible that is best for them.

[swathdiver]

What do you mean with "how"? It's not like I die and I start a 10 day trip floating till I find the gates of Heaven....
I told you the answer that Jesus Himself told to those who asked the same question. Is it not enough?

The original question was how does anyone get into heaven, I then personalized it when asked a second time.

If I understand you correctly by your quote, one has to keep the 10 commandments to get into heaven? Is that right?

[John81]

Hi John81, actually I didn't meant exclusively to my country. I meant for all the others, especially considering that the KJV only appeared in the 17th Century, there were other translations before it that Christians all around the world used. What I find hard to believe is that this "line" exists. It sounds a lot like what the RCC teaches.


You are correct Annie, my name is Daniel.
Although I mentioned homosexuality I could have used several other subjects which are more controversial, like the pill or abortion. What i understand from what you are telling me is that it is possible that Baptists do not agree on moral issues. Why is that?
I do not live in dread of God's wrath... I live in angst of getting away from His Light... which is why I struggle so much. What do you expect me to feel if after repenting and God tells me "Go and sin no more" I go and continue to sin? It makes me feel like my repentance was not true... not that He didn't cleanse me.
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousy, wrath, factions, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, reveling, and the like; of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they who do such things SHALL NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:19).
"21 “Not everyone who says to Me, r‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who sdoes the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we tnot prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And uthen I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; vdepart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Matthew 7:21-23.
"⁹Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
¹⁰Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." I Cor : 9-10
“But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).
I am a sinner... I need God's Grace constantly to avoid falling in sin and you think that I can "know" that I will inherit the Kingdom of God?



So... what makes these churches more truthful than others?
Does this mean all of them are true?
What are the differences between these and the Independent Fundamental Baptists?

One in Christ,
D

The Bible was not generally available to the average population in large numbers until the KJB. There were Bibles before then, but not many and only in a few languages. The RCC attempted to prevent the Bible from being translated into languages other than Latin, and when Bibles were finally printed in other languages, the RCC did all they could to confiscate and burn them.

The reason I posted the link was so you can click on any or all of those listed and see how even among those calling themselves Baptist there is a wide variety.

There is no one Baptist church, no one Baptist people, no one Baptist theology. Today one has to be careful with regards to a Baptist church, making sure they are a sound biblical church.

[dskysmine]

As for me, I am not in the position to state what Bible people that speak other languages than English should use. I know that many of our English speaking brother & sister will use that though about what Bible those that do not speak English should use to try & tear the KJ Bible to pieces while trying to get everyone to accept all of the modern versions, saying we have to use all version in order to pick out what God wants of us. They use this thought because its handy, & easy to use.

All I know is that we English speaking people ought to use the KJ Bible. I will let God, & His Holy Spirit, guide those who He has called that do not speak English guide His people to the Bible that is best for them.

I didn't ask the question to "tear the KJ Bible to pieces". I asked the question with honesty as I do not share the "KJV only" view. The "KJV only" view purports to maintain that the Truth has been shared to only a selected few, which is pretty much what the RCC does.
I asked because I cannot in all honesty go to someone and tell them they can only know the truth if they learn English... that would be nonsensical.
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." I don't see a "English speaking men" in the Scripture... not even the KJV. But as I said I am here to learn and in case you have a good argument to support the view that the KJV is the only true Bible please state your case.

The original question was how does anyone get into heaven, I then personalized it when asked a second time.

If I understand you correctly by your quote, one has to keep the 10 commandments to get into heaven? Is that right?

Actually Jesus asks more than that... Maybe you should read it again. Why do you ask it?

The Bible was not generally available to the average population in large numbers until the KJB. There were Bibles before then, but not many and only in a few languages. The RCC attempted to prevent the Bible from being translated into languages other than Latin, and when Bibles were finally printed in other languages, the RCC did all they could to confiscate and burn them.

The reason I posted the link was so you can click on any or all of those listed and see how even among those calling themselves Baptist there is a wide variety.

There is no one Baptist church, no one Baptist people, no one Baptist theology. Today one has to be careful with regards to a Baptist church, making sure they are a sound biblical church.

The issue comes with the question of how do you determine that "they" are a "sound biblical church"?
I don't assume I know all about Scripture. Can you say you can determine if someone is from a "sound biblical church"?
Why?
One in Christ,
D

[John81]

I didn't ask the question to "tear the KJ Bible to pieces". I asked the question with honesty as I do not share the "KJV only" view. The "KJV only" view purports to maintain that the Truth has been shared to only a selected few, which is pretty much what the RCC does.
I asked because I cannot in all honesty go to someone and tell them they can only know the truth if they learn English... that would be nonsensical.
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." I don't see a "English speaking men" in the Scripture... not even the KJV. But as I said I am here to learn and in case you have a good argument to support the view that the KJV is the only true Bible please state your case.


Actually Jesus asks more than that... Maybe you should read it again. Why do you ask it?


The issue comes with the question of how do you determine that "they" are a "sound biblical church"?
I don't assume I know all about Scripture. Can you say you can determine if someone is from a "sound biblical church"?
Why?
One in Christ,
D

Read and study the Bible, that's the only way. The Apostle Paul commended the Bereans for doing this very thing. Throughout Scripture God commands that we read and study the Word, day and night.

When one is born again in Christ and comes to know the Bible, they are able to discern between false and biblical teaching.

[dskysmine]

Read and study the Bible, that's the only way. The Apostle Paul commended the Bereans for doing this very thing. Throughout Scripture God commands that we read and study the Word, day and night.

When one is born again in Christ and comes to know the Bible, they are able to discern between false and biblical teaching.

Hi John,
Thousands, if not millions of men have studied the Bible for centuries and we still do not see much of an agreement on what is false and biblical teaching. Even in the Baptist Churches where men and women study the Scriptures daily it seems there is no agreement.
If one Church says "We follow the Bible", the other says "We live according to the Bible" and the other "Our lives are Bible centered" and all three profess different understandings on some part of what the Bible says.
You also mention that we can identify after one is born again in Christ... but as far as I understood one can only do so through the Bible, isn't that correct? So the argument is circular...
One in Christ,
D

[John81]

Hi John,
Thousands, if not millions of men have studied the Bible for centuries and we still do not see much of an agreement on what is false and biblical teaching. Even in the Baptist Churches where men and women study the Scriptures daily it seems there is no agreement.
If one Church says "We follow the Bible", the other says "We live according to the Bible" and the other "Our lives are Bible centered" and all three profess different understandings on some part of what the Bible says.
You also mention that we can identify after one is born again in Christ... but as far as I understood one can only do so through the Bible, isn't that correct? So the argument is circular...
One in Christ,
D

Not at all. Anyone can understand the salvation message and be born again in Christ. However, to fully understand the Word of God, one must have the Holy Spirit within them, and He only resides in those born again in Christ.

No doubt many people say many things, but first off, if they are not biblically born again in Christ, their words on the matter mean nothing.

If you study the history of Christianity, real Christianity, not the worldly version, you will learn that actual Christians have been in agreement upon the core beliefs, the fundamentals.

[JerryNumbers]

My post was not made as a put down, I was giving my opinion, that's all.

I'm 65 years of age, what I know was not learned overnight, it was learned over a life time of study, I have given you a site that will answer your ever question. Take it, & your Bible & study it out. If you would do that, in time you would lean much about God, Jesus Churches, & how to live for Christ. b ut it want happen over night.

I'm dropping out of this topic, to many people posting answers, makes it confusing for you.

[swathdiver]

Actually Jesus asks more than that... Maybe you should read it again. Why do you ask it?

So in your own words, could you please tell me how to get to heaven? There's a knife in my back, I've just been hit by a car and my body is crushed; I want to go to heaven! Please tell me how to get there. There's not much time left before I bleed out. What must I do sir??? Edited March 14, 2012 by swathdiver

[dskysmine]

Not at all. Anyone can understand the salvation message and be born again in Christ. However, to fully understand the Word of God, one must have the Holy Spirit within them, and He only resides in those born again in Christ.

No doubt many people say many things, but first off, if they are not biblically born again in Christ, their words on the matter mean nothing.

If you study the history of Christianity, real Christianity, not the worldly version, you will learn that actual Christians have been in agreement upon the core beliefs, the fundamentals.

John81 let me make this as clear as I possibly can:
What comes first? The understanding of the Scripture or the being born again in Christ? From what I read in your argument... it is circular. Can you please explain?

My post was not made as a put down, I was giving my opinion, that's all.

I'm 65 years of age, what I know was not learned overnight, it was learned over a life time of study, I have given you a site that will answer your ever question. Take it, & your Bible & study it out. If you would do that, in time you would lean much about God, Jesus Churches, & how to live for Christ. b ut it want happen over night.

I'm dropping out of this topic, to many people posting answers, makes it confusing for you.

Thank you very much for everything. I didn't take it as a put down. It's just that with all the questions and my own life and work I don't have so much time to read everything....

So in your own words, could you please tell me how to get to heaven? There's a knife in my back, I've just been hit by a car and my body is crushed; I want to go to heaven! Please tell me how to get there. There's not much time left before I bleed out. What must I do sir???

With no disrespect:
Trust God and hope for the best...=D
Is that a hypothetical scenario? Because if it is, it sounds really implausible...
One in Christ,
D

[John81]

I'm not sure how much more clear I can be on this point. The Gospel message of salvation is clear so one may be born again in Christ. In order to have an understanding of the whole Bible, one must be have the Holy Spirit, the author of Scripture, within them, and this is only possible if one is born again in Christ.

There is nothing circular about that at all.

[dskysmine]

I'm not sure how much more clear I can be on this point. The Gospel message of salvation is clear so one may be born again in Christ. In order to have an understanding of the whole Bible, one must be have the Holy Spirit, the author of Scripture, within them, and this is only possible if one is born again in Christ.

There is nothing circular about that at all.

I will try to explain what your argument tells me with a logical deduction so you can follow me (logic being that I have 2 premises that lead to a conclusion):
1st premise: If I understand the Gospel message I am Born again in Christ.
2nd premise: If I am Born in Christ I am able to understand the Gospel message.
3rd premise (conclusion): I must understand the Gospel message in order to be able to understand the Gospel message?!?
This is called circular reasoning... Do you understand what I mean?
One in Christ,
D

[John81]

I will try to explain what your argument tells me with a logical deduction so you can follow me (logic being that I have 2 premises that lead to a conclusion):
1st premise: If I understand the Gospel message I am Born again in Christ.
2nd premise: If I am Born in Christ I am able to understand the Gospel message.
3rd premise (conclusion): I must understand the Gospel message in order to be able to understand the Gospel message?!?
This is called circular reasoning... Do you understand what I mean?
One in Christ,
D

That's not what I said at all.

I said the Gospel message of salvation is clear for any to understand. Just because one can understand the message of salvation doesn't mean one is born again, but if they respond in accord with Scripture they may be born again.

Other matters of Scripture are given for Christians and requires the Holy Spirit within the reader to be able to gain understanding.

[dskysmine]

It seems I have to make it even simpler:

That's not what I said at all.

I said the Gospel message of salvation is clear for any to understand. Just because one can understand the message of salvation doesn't mean one is born again, but if they respond in accord with Scripture they may be born again.

So the first premise is: If one responds to Scripture (whatever you imply by that), one is (or may be) born again.

Other matters of Scripture are given for Christians and requires the Holy Spirit within the reader to be able to gain understanding.

Which makes second premise being: If one is to be able to gain understanding of it one requires the Holy Spirit.
These premises do not lead to a conclusion.

In your first premise you assume that responding to Scripture does not require understanding of it. Then the question arising is: how is one supposed to respond to Scripture without understanding it?
The second premise is even against one of your own statements: "Understanding the message doesn't mean one is born again". Then why would one want the Holy Spirit to understand it (as you assert)?

Now do you see why your argument does not make sense to me?
One in Christ,
D