FREEDOM LOST

[rancher824]

I am going to ask a direct blunt question. Is it a sin for a christian to be a soldier?

[John81]

I am going to ask a direct blunt question. Is it a sin for a christian to be a soldier?

Not if God has directed them to that position. If God has not directed them to that, then yes, it would be a sin for them.

That said, this has little to do with what Jerry was saying.

[JerryNumbers]

Lu 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Seems the answer to your question is right there, yet it has nothing whatsoever will rebelling against those who have authority over you, we are to pray for them, not go to war against them.

[rancher824]

Actually gentleman, it has a lot to do with the subject at hand. I am not certain as to what Jerry's answer meant, but I will try to glean from it what he may have meant. There is this phrase in the verse "Do violence to no man" which Jerry could be meaning a Christian should not be a soldier because a soldier does violence during combat when he fires upon enemy soldiers. But then there is the phrase "and be content with your wages." which does not tell them to leave there position as a soldier. And besides, these men that John is speaking unto were still under the Old Testament Law. The New Testament had not been given. The Jews at times in the OT were commanded rise and go to battle against those who were ruling over them. So I guess to be honest, I do not know what Jerry's answer is. So I will try to get what little I know about Jerry to attempt at what he might believe. He was in the Air force. He has spoke of those days without, to my knowledge, telling of the sin of him being in it. From this I would assume he agrees with John that it is not a sin for at least some Christians to be soldiers. Now how does this fit the conversation?? Well, Jerry keeps bringing up James 4 and saying this proves the patriots were filled with lust. He will not answer as to whether it be possible the king was the one filled with lust. So I will show that, using the same logical reading of scriptures it is wrong for ANY CHRISTIAN to be a soldier. Lets take a good look at one of the proof texts that the two have used to show the patriots were wrong.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Now lets take a good look at this. He starts out that every soul. That is simple and can be agreed means every person. He says be subject or place himself under. He then says higher powers. Notice the s in powers not power. We will come back to this. He then tells us there is no power BUT OF GOD. That they are ORDAINED OF GOD. He is saying that God places all Govt in place and God is the one who takes down Govt. He then says those that resist the power, here with no s but lumping all powers together as ordained of God resist the ordinance of God and will receive damnation. What does this mean. If it means that those of the patriots who stood were sinning, so does it about any man that stands as a soldier. For what does a soldier do? One of his main Jobs is to resist any power (all powers are of the ordinance of God) that would rise against his nations power. He is placing himself in a position that he will have to fight against a power that God established. So, therefore any man that is a soldier is standing in a sinful occupation.

I do not believe this to be what the verse is saying any more than that it condemns the patriots. It is saying that we are not to try to live as anarchists without law. The patriots set up a new govt rather than trying for anarchy. They were following the meaning of Romans 13. The war was caused by the lust of the British in trying to have taxation without representation.

This is my attempt to make what John and Jerry are saying make sense. God decided to establish a new nation in America (All powers Romans 13, God sets up and tears down Dan 2:21 & 4:17). He allowed a bunch of preachers who were seeking his will to be blinded from his will enough to preach to the people it was okay for them to take up arms even though it was against the will of God. The people were then so blinded as to God's will for them to live peacibly under their Govt. that they did take up arms and win the war setting up the Nation that was God's will to be set up. Wow, now I am really confused!!! :huh: :saywhat:

[John81]

Scripture says rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, which warrented the death penalty.

There are not stipulations given to Christians for which there is any cause to take up arms against the authorities over them. In fact, while under the very wicked, Christian persecuting Emperor Nero, Paul wrote that Christians are to be subject to the authorities over them.

Christians are to view themselves as, and live as, pilgrims, strangers and ambassadors on this earth. A Christians citizenship is in heaven and Christians are to be about building that kingdom, not earthly kingdoms. Wherever God has placed Christians and under whatever authority He has placed Christians, they are to live for Christ, as Scripture commands, for His glory and honour, not our own, as citizens of heaven and abamassors for Christ.

There is no teaching in Scripture that gives Christians a green light to rise up against the authority placed over them. Christians are to pray about such matters, trusting God to work through this, and to live shining the light of Christ for others to see, trusting God to use such faithfulness for His glory.

[JerryNumbers]

Scripture says rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, which warrented the death penalty.

There are not stipulations given to Christians for which there is any cause to take up arms against the authorities over them. In fact, while under the very wicked, Christian persecuting Emperor Nero, Paul wrote that Christians are to be subject to the authorities over them.

Christians are to view themselves as, and live as, pilgrims, strangers and ambassadors on this earth. A Christians citizenship is in heaven and Christians are to be about building that kingdom, not earthly kingdoms. Wherever God has placed Christians and under whatever authority He has placed Christians, they are to live for Christ, as Scripture commands, for His glory and honour, not our own, as citizens of heaven and abamassors for Christ.

There is no teaching in Scripture that gives Christians a green light to rise up against the authority placed over them. Christians are to pray about such matters, trusting God to work through this, and to live shining the light of Christ for others to see, trusting God to use such faithfulness for His glory.

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.


John, It seems that this United States was born out of rebellion against those who had authority over them. I might add, Americans, even American Christians, hates paying taxes as much now as they did when they rebelled against Britain. Even though it seems clear that God tells us to render unto Caesar that which is His.

Mt 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.


And of course your right, rebellion is the same as witchcraft, which makes it a sin against God.

[rancher824]

Well, if you will read back through the book of Judges you will find lots of rebellion!! The people would rebel against God and God would send a Kingdom to be over them, have authority over them, rule over them. This would go on for some time until one of the Judges would come and start them to turn to God and at the same time start a rebellion against the nation that was over them. Take Ehud for example. He went with a gift to the king (Eglon) and took a dagger with him. He then used the dagger to kill (could also call it assassinate, as that is what it was) the king that was over him. He then returned to raise an army to take back to finish rebelling against and overthrow the govt they were under. Or possibly consider when God sold them into the hand of Jabin. Deborah and Barak led a rebellion and defeated Sisera, Jabins captain. Or perhaps when the Lord delivered them to Midian and then sent Gideon to lead a rebellion with an army of 300. So we can see God leading these in the REBELLION that you speak of against those who are ruling over them. So what do we find in 1 SAM 15? Saul had rebelled against what? A govt that was not obeying its own laws???? NO!!! What was Saul rebelling against??? God's direct command!!!! Rebelling against God's command is as the sin of witchcraft!! Then I know you will run back to Romans 13. But again I say that if it is meaning what you say ANY Christian that has ever served as a soldier was in sin for going against Romans 13!!!!

[John81]

Are Christians told to abide by the teachings given to them in the New Testament or to try and copy Israel during a wicked time in their history when God had to directly intervene at times for a nation, not a Christian?

[rancher824]

Are the Old Testament scriptures given to us to simply read and then ignore, or as examples?

[John81]

Are the Old Testament scriptures given to us to simply read and then ignore, or as examples?

There are many examples in the OT, some to be followed, some to point to future things, some as matters of history, etc.

The point being, the NT gives specific instructions that Christians are to live by and nothing elsewhere in Scripture supercedes this.

There is also a problem in many churches (not speaking to you or anyone, speaking in general here) where they try to take the ways God dealt with Israel as if they apply to how Christians are to be. Christians are not Israel, God was dealing directly with Israel, still giving direct inspiration and revelation then which He no longer does, and Christians are actually held to a much higher calling than was Israel.

[rancher824]

My point is that you took 1 Sam 15 (rebellion same as witchcraft) to prove that those who led in forming our nation were sinning. You might take note that your verse was an Old Testament verse speaking of a man who was given a direct command from God that could not have been misunderstood and going against it. He rebelled against God. But back to my point. I showed that in the same basic time period God was commanding men to do what you say is rebellion and as witchcraft worthy of death. Was God right or was God wrong? Of course we can agree God was and is always right. So how do you arrive at something being equal to a death penalty crime NT but commanded by God OT? Did God really CHANGE that much?? God does not change!!!
I can agree when we have a direct command in the NT the OT does not supercede it. But if we have what we believe to be a direct command that has a total change from the OT examples we need to look again at our direct command to see if we are misreading it. Such as Jerry's war comes from lust so they were guilty of lust. The OT examples show that God was behind some wars. If you put the two together it has God guilty of lust. But he is guilty of nothing. So you need to look deaper into the meaning. Yes wars come from lust. But there is not always lust on both sides. Were the patriots guilty of lust or were they wanting what was rightfully theirs in the first place? Was the king of England giving them what was legally theirs, or was he taking more than he should have? Were they guilty of lust, or was the king?

There are many examples in the OT, some to be followed, some to point to future things, some as matters of history, etc.

I would love to know how you decide what is just history and what we need to use as examples to follow. I do not remember how you worded it, but in another thread you said God did not just give us a list of thou shalt nots. That there are some things we need to look for the examples in scripture. In the burial thread you and Jerry talked about how the only example in scripture was burial until I brought up Saul and Jonathan. But that quickly became "history" and not something to be followed. I also pointed out a while back that all examples in scripture of mens attire is robes. But your answer was there was no command (thou shalt not) so as long as we are modest it does not matter. Tell me how to know what examples are important and what ones are not because they are simply history. Is it that if it agrees with what you believe it is important, but if it disagrees it is just history?

[JerryNumbers]

My point is that you took 1 Sam 15 (rebellion same as witchcraft) to prove that those who led in forming our nation were sinning. You might take note that your verse was an Old Testament verse speaking of a man who was given a direct command from God that could not have been misunderstood and going against it. He rebelled against God. But back to my point. I showed that in the same basic time period God was commanding men to do what you say is rebellion and as witchcraft worthy of death. Was God right or was God wrong? Of course we can agree God was and is always right. So how do you arrive at something being equal to a death penalty crime NT but commanded by God OT? Did God really CHANGE that much?? God does not change!!!
I can agree when we have a direct command in the NT the OT does not supercede it. But if we have what we believe to be a direct command that has a total change from the OT examples we need to look again at our direct command to see if we are misreading it. Such as Jerry's war comes from lust so they were guilty of lust. The OT examples show that God was behind some wars. If you put the two together it has God guilty of lust. But he is guilty of nothing. So you need to look deaper into the meaning. Yes wars come from lust. But there is not always lust on both sides. Were the patriots guilty of lust or were they wanting what was rightfully theirs in the first place? Was the king of England giving them what was legally theirs, or was he taking more than he should have? Were they guilty of lust, or was the king?

I would love to know how you decide what is just history and what we need to use as examples to follow. I do not remember how you worded it, but in another thread you said God did not just give us a list of thou shalt nots. That there are some things we need to look for the examples in scripture. In the burial thread you and Jerry talked about how the only example in scripture was burial until I brought up Saul and Jonathan. But that quickly became "history" and not something to be followed. I also pointed out a while back that all examples in scripture of mens attire is robes. But your answer was there was no command (thou shalt not) so as long as we are modest it does not matter. Tell me how to know what examples are important and what ones are not because they are simply history. Is it that if it agrees with what you believe it is important, but if it disagrees it is just history?

And they're backed up with New Testament verses that clearly tell us were war comes from.

Jas 4:1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

And if we are rebelling, trying to over throw the goverment over us, we cleary are not obeying thses verses.

1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Yes, when one goes to war against those that are in authority over them, they are not doing as the Bible instructs. You cannot be at war & be living a peaceful godly life. The two are completely opposites.

[rancher824]

And they're backed up with New Testament verses that clearly tell us were war comes from.

Jas 4:1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

And if we are rebelling, trying to over throw the goverment over us, we cleary are not obeying thses verses.

1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Yes, when one goes to war against those that are in authority over them, they are not doing as the Bible instructs. You cannot be at war & be living a peaceful godly life. The two are completely opposites.

Well Jerry, I feel very sorry for you. For you must have a sinful God full of lust. For as I have shown, and no one has tried to prove wrong, God has been the one behind many wars. And according to your belief those in war are full of lust.

As to 1 Timothy 2, lets look at more than 2 verses.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Okay tell me is there a COMMAND to lead a quiet and peaceable life??? NO. There is a command to pray for those in authority that they will make laws allowing us to live a quiet and peaceable life. If we are to expect to have tribulation in this life, how could that be a quiet and peacable life? If we live for Christ chances are our lives will not be at peace. Take the brother in iran who is possibaly going to loose his life for Christ.
His life is not peaceful. But, through what you call rebellion we have been for the past 200 plus years been for the most part granted quiet peaceable lives. I am sure that did not come from our for fathers praying for those with authority (George Washington, etc) because those would have been prayers for nothing but sinful rebels that God would not have blessed (sarcasm!).

[rancher824]

Okay, you do not like OT. Let's try NT

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS

Note that verse 11 says make WAR and then back to your verse

Jas 4:1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

James says nothing about wars against authority over you, just wars among you. I guess your Lord of lords is full of lust. But mine is Not. Edited October 18, 2011 by rancher824

[John81]

1 Peter 2:13-17

King James Version (KJV)


¹³Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
¹⁴Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
¹⁵For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
¹⁶As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
¹⁷Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.