Dichotomy vs Trichotomy

[Brother Rick]

Rick: so why did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison and not souls?

I don't have to know the answer to this to change the fact that Jesus said He would be in paradise that day and that paradise was very clearly in the heart of the Earth, and at the same time His body was in the tomb but His spirit He had commended His spirit unto the Father. That's three parts.

That being said, If I had to take a guess as to why they're called spirits its because they're probably not normal people. They're probably angels, kinda like the ones bound in the Euphrates river.

Also, I've never heard of the soul and the spirit being in different places after death. What then is a spirit if all spirits go to God while the souls go to paradise or Hell? Are the spirits of those who are in Hell with God? Are those people then experiencing torment and fellowship with God simultaneously? Which brings us back to the first question? Why are those spirits in prison and why does Jesus' soul peach to them?

All I know about the spirit is what the Bible says about it. The Bible says the spirit giveth life, and in John 3 Jesus likens the spirit to air and wind. So my best guess is that the spirit inside of man is something given to him by God for life, and when he dies God takes it away. Kinda like a battery. No, lost people do not suffer for sins and enjoy fellowship with God at the same time.

What are we talking about here, what is the main thrust of your questions? Do you believe that there was a Paradise in the heart of the Earth? Or are you still focusing on the trichodomy/dichotomy issue?

[anime4christ]

Rick: the gospel is only for people..angels,cherubim,frogs,and tigers are excluded..if Christ went to preach to spirits in prison,out was to human spirits..it also shows that spirits are conscious,not just a battery..God is a spirit,angels are spirits..and they are all conscious..why wouldn't the human spirit be conscious? The bible clearly talks about the spirit feeling emotions as well as the soul..the bible also talks about souls and spirits experiencing the afterlife. My conclusion: in the spiritual realm, soul and spirit are used almost synonymously..the spirit generally represents the immaterial part of man, while the soul represents the person..they're not necessarily the exact same thing,but they are in no way separate. When Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison,I don't believe he went there as a prisoner..when he died he said it is finished..that means he did not suffer after his death..otherwise it would not have been finished..but he went to his father,and afterwards he could have gone to paradise and preach in prison..I know in eternity time is not the same as on earth,but Jesus did have 3 days and could move around pretty fast in the spiritual realm.

[Annie]

I haven't given this topic a lot of thought, but I've followed more in the dichotomist tradition than the trichotomist. Man has two parts: material and immaterial. I don't know how anyone could argue with that, do you? Perhaps there are (for lack of a better word) "subdivisions" of each category, but I (at least for now) don't see how there could be three categories...Perhaps one or more of the terms body, soul, and spirit encompass each other.

I don't like comparisons of man's nature with the Trinity...The Holy Spirit isn't "part" of God. He is wholly God, and God is wholly He. The Trinity isn't described as "parts of a whole," but as one being encompassing and all-encompassed by three personalities. It is beyond comprehension.

We are created in the image of God, with mind, will, and emotions...There was no human Jesus, or "God in the body" at the time of man's creation, so I think that analogy (three parts of man in God's image being "body, soul, and spirit") falls apart right from the start. The whole idea of the "Incarnation," which we just celebrated, was that God became a man...it was "something new," not a part of His nature or immutable character. God was God before He ever manifested Himself in human flesh. If anything, He made Himself in our image, not the other way around, when it came to the incarnation (see Phil. 2: "...was made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man...").

It seems like the word soul in Scripture sometimes refers to the body (material) and sometimes refers to the spirit (immaterial). I've always thought it synonymous with "personality," or what makes a living creature a human as opposed to a creature driven completely by instincts/chemicals interacting in the brain. So, it could be part of the "immaterial" man, or overlap with both material and immaterial. But it doesn't work to look at it as a completely separate category (neither material nor immaterial).

Edited December 30, 2011 by Annie

[Brother Rick]

Rick: the gospel is only for people..angels,cherubim,frogs,and tigers are excluded..if Christ went to preach to spirits in prison,out was to human spirits.

Glad you explained that, I guess I can stop witnessing to my neighbor's cat.

How do you know they were human spirits? So Jesus preached the gospel to the spirits in prison, is that what you're saying? Why would he do that? Do you believe they had a second chance? What was the point of Jesus preaching to spirits in prison?

.it also shows that spirits are conscious,not just a battery..God is a spirit,angels are spirits..and they are all conscious..why wouldn't the human spirit be conscious? The bible clearly talks about the spirit feeling emotions as well as the soul..the bible also talks about souls and spirits experiencing the afterlife.

The Bible also talks about the spirit of animals going downward upon death. I've already stated that I agree that soul, spirit, heart, person, etc can be synonymously. They are all different words though in of themselves and have different individual meanings, even though they can overlap.

My conclusion: in the spiritual realm, soul and spirit are used almost synonymously..the spirit generally represents the immaterial part of man, while the soul represents the person..they're not necessarily the exact same thing,but they are in no way separate. When Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison,I don't believe he went there as a prisoner..when he died he said it is finished..that means he did not suffer after his death..otherwise it would not have been finished..but he went to his father,and afterwards he could have gone to paradise and preach in prison..I know in eternity time is not the same as on earth,but Jesus did have 3 days and could move around pretty fast in the spiritual realm.

The problem with Christ's soul/spirit going to the Father and then flying down into Paradise was that He told Mary to not touch Him for He had "not yet ascended." But then later on people did touch Him, so it was a different ascension then we saw in Acts 1.

I also do not believe that Jesus suffered at all after the cross. It was finished at Calvary and I do not subscribe to the idea that Christ suffered in Hell. On a supernatural level He suffered much more than the physical treatment He received on the cross, and He suffered for all the sins of mankind past, present, and future.
Edited December 30, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[JerryNumbers]

Calvary: God is beyond our logic and we must trust him above our fallen understanding, but God is not illogical..he calls us to reason so there is nothing wrong with using logic and reason to some extant when studying the bible..unless you do have a problem with God's command to reason..

What we have to be careful with is, 'human logic,' 'earthly wisdom.' Why? Because that is where most of our logic & wisdom comes from. We are loaded up with it, taught it at every turn.

And God is way beyond 'human logic,' & 'earthly wisdom.'

[JerryNumbers]

Glad you explained that, I guess I can stop witnessing to my neighbor's cat.

How do you know they were human spirits? So Jesus preached the gospel to the spirits in prison, is that what you're saying? Why would he do that? Do you believe they had a second chance? What was the point of Jesus preaching to spirits in prison?




The Bible also talks about the spirit of animals going downward upon death. I've already stated that I agree that soul, spirit, heart, person, etc can be synonymously. They are all different words though in of themselves and have different individual meanings, even though they can overlap.




The problem with Christ's soul/spirit going to the Father and then flying down into Paradise was that He told Mary to not touch Him for He had "not yet ascended." But then later on people did touch Him, so it was a different ascension then we saw in Acts 1.

I also do not believe that Jesus suffered at all after the cross. It was finished at Calvary and I do not subscribe to the idea that Christ suffered in Hell. On a supernatural level He suffered much more than the physical treatment He received on the cross, and He suffered for all the sins of mankind past, present, and future.

I have heard some that claim that Jesus had to finish up by suffering in hell, I disagree with that, simply because of what you stated, "It is finished." God has truly accept the sacrifice at that moment.

So His trip below was not for suffering.

[Annie]

It seems like (as Rick supported when he acknowledged that terms like mind, spirit, person, etc., overlap) dichotomy offers the best, clearest, and simplest way to describe the makeup of a human. We are material and immaterial. Depending on what aspect of ourselves we are talking about (as relates to this world and/or the next), we employ words like mind, soul, body, spirit, will, emotions, heart, bowels, imagination, personality, self, flesh, etc. Some of these words can mean more than one thing; they're not rigid but flexible depending on context. For example, flesh can refer both to the material body (We walk in the flesh; Christ became flesh) and the part of our inner, immaterial selves which drives our inordinate lusts (walk not after the flesh). IMO, that's why it doesn't make sense to say that human essence has "three distinct parts"....We have a lot more than that, really, and we can't say for sure that any of the parts--except the immaterial and the material--don't overlap each other at various points. That's why the dichotomist paradigm seems to be a lot more consistent to me.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Annie

[anime4christ]

Amen Annie :)

[DennisD]

What do these verses mean then? They seem to say all three:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit); and man became a living soul.



Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Seems here Soul and Spirit and Heart are all different.

[anime4christ]

I already addressed all those verses in this thread. Can you take a look at what I said in previous posts and see if they make sense or provide some criticism for them? It would be rather useless for me to type them all again only to be ignored. I would appreciate if someone did review them though.

[DennisD]

Think the significance of a trichotomous viewpoint is the significance of a "God-consciousness" which animals do not possess. There is something that sets us apart from the rest of creation.

I'm not saying man is a "trinity" because one part is not in and of it self, wholly man.

I won't say I know for sure but I came across this recently from Robert Sargent and David Warner that was interesting:


The Heart, Soul, & Mind of Man
The heart and soul exhibit the same Characteristics [(for they are the same)]
Ps 13:5 But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.
Ps 35:9 And my soul shall be joyful in the Lord: it shall rejoice in his salvation.

The words “heart” and “soul” are used interchangeably in the Bible to refer to the same immaterial part of man.
[The ‘soul’ is the place where man’s heart is located at. I believe they are not exactly the same; i.e., the soul is made up of the heart, but is not the heart de facto.]

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The ‘soul’, ‘spirit’, and ‘heart’ all appear to be different.

[The ‘mind’ is very similar to the ‘heart’; but, is nonetheless a bit different]
[1 Cor 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.]
[The ‘mind’ is that part of the soul that ‘thinks’, whereas the ‘heart’ is that part of the soul that ‘feels’. They are both part of the soul of man and often are used interchangeably, but are nonetheless a bit different in essence.]
[The ‘soul’ probably is a generic term and can be used both in relationship to one’s ‘heart’ (emotions) and one’s eternal being (the real you).
Ps 6:3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O Lord, how long?
Ps 84:2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the Lord: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.]

[The soul is often referred to as the ‘will’, ‘volition’, ‘decision maker’ of a ‘person’. In fact it is ‘the person’.]

[The truth of the matter might be that the term ‘soul’, ‘heart’, and ‘mind’ may all be (at times) referring to the one and the same…the real you…that part of you that is eternal…]

The Spirit of Man
The “spirit” (Grk. pneuma) is that unique part of man which exhibits “God-consciousness.”

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

[Prov 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?

Prov 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.]

The apparent unity of soul and spirit –
Both the soul and the spirit constitute the immaterial part of man, and both were given to man at the time of creation — Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit); and man became a living soul (soul).

The spirit is sometimes equated with the heart.
Deut 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

The declared distinction between soul and spirit –
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,…

[1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Here the soul is related to the natural body (physical) whereas the spirit is equated to the spiritual body. I discern from this that the two are different (night and day, even). Adam being made a living soul is his becoming a ‘person’, a ‘being’; it is not just referring to him having a physical body that is chemically ‘alive’. The ‘last Adam’ (Jesus Christ) is dealing with the spiritual side (as opposed to the soul…dealing with the flesh side – but not necessarily the ‘sin’ side).]

[i believe that the word ‘spirit’ can mean the same as the ‘soul’, or ‘heart’, of man; kind of in the sense of the ‘consciousness’ of man… the real you. But, the primary definition of ‘spirit’ would be the place of the spiritual… the portion of one’s being where the Spirit of God comes in at and excerts His influence (or an evil spirit can). The spirit is that part of man’s being that deals with the spiritual and influences the soul of man in that regard.]

The Relationship Between Body, Soul, and Spirit
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Man is made in the image and likeness of God.

Man has a volitional likeness to God:
Like his Maker, man has a will that he can exercise. He can choose and decide things — for example, whether to love or hate. This is one of the great differences between man and the animal kingdom. Man is a free moral agent, whereas animals are bound by instinct and training. [Also, man can choose to follow God’s will, or his own will. Even Jesus was subject to this: Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.]

Man has an intellectual likeness to God.
God is an intelligent being — man is an intelligent being (though not infinitely).
[However, man’s intelligence is far inferior to God’s –
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Animals cannot reason things out, but their brains do function, albeit minimally (e.g. an ant).]

Man has a moral likeness to God.
By this we mean that man has the ability to discern the difference between right and wrong. Romans 2:15 teaches that all men have a conscience.
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)
[Man inherently knows right from wrong…in general…animals do not.]

Man is an eternal being
[This is true whether they are lost or saved. Death refers to ‘separation’, not ceasing to exist. The fact that man has a living soul teaches that his being exists eternally. Those that are lost will physically die and their soul will go to hell; their soul will exist forever in Hell…suffering.
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.]

[Death is the departing of the soul (a Christian can ‘die’).
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin..]

[some day all the departed souls (some to heaven, some to hell) will have their former physical bodies resurrected and will be reunited as ‘one’ again…soul and body.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.]

[i think that it can be safely said that ‘we’ do not understand fully the definitions and differences of the following terms: soul, spirit, heart, mind. Therefore, great care needs to be taken when teaching on these subjects. The Bible has the answer, thus, we just need to compare scripture with scripture more.]

[anime4christ]

I think that author says a lot of things I said in favor of dichotomy. I think he failed to make the issue any clearer and failed to establish a case for trichotomy (because as I said, I used a lot of his arguments for dichotomy).

Besides the above, I noticed two flaws in the argument for trichotomy there: 1) he admitted himself that the heart is is as a synonym for both the spirit and the soul (perhaps they share the same heart or core because they essentially are parts of the same) and 2) he says the spirit is the center of our God-consciousness and that which makes us differ from animals, however the bible doesn't state that anywhere and animals do have a spirit as well.