Abraham Lincoln: Saint or Sinner?

[John81]

As I said, I don't know much about the American Civil war. We didn't even do much about the English Civil war in history at school. I suppose we should have a programme Oliver Cromwell, Saint or Sinner

I would say, Saint. Others would disagree.

With Oliver Cromwell having been a Puritan I'm sure some would say he was probably saved, and therefore a saint, while others would say not because of certain Puritan teachings, and therefore say he was a sinner.

I've not read enough of Cromwell to hazzard a guess.

[HappyChristian]

Here's a link to a letter Cromwell wrote. http://www.vaticanassassins.org/2010/08/oliver-cromwell-on-his-new-model-armys-the-right-to-resist-political-tyranny/
Unfortunately, he was one of those who believe that it is government, not the person, who is ordained, and can thus be changed by the people (tongue-in-cheek, here!). It would appear from comments he makes in this letter that he, indeed, was a Christian.

As to Lincoln - there are several claims from his contemporaries that he was saved at one time or another in his life. And there were a few pastors who claimed he came to them and that they led him to the Lord. So, what is to be believed? Who knows!

Chiniquy was an interesting man. I don't know that I would say he was a fraud (don't know for sure) - but Jack Chick (the one who printed the book) has been known to front frauds in the past, so I've wondered...The history that is presented in the book is amazing - his path from Catholicism to Christianity is a great read. I don't doubt that he felt that the Jesuits were behind Lincoln's assassination, but I have to seriously wonder...I don't suppose we'll know until we get to Heaven, and by then it won't matter. :saint2:

[Invicta]

Here's a link to a letter Cromwell wrote. http://www.vaticanassassins.org/2010/08/oliver-cromwell-on-his-new-model-armys-the-right-to-resist-political-tyranny/
Unfortunately, he was one of those who believe that it is government, not the person, who is ordained, and can thus be changed by the people (tongue-in-cheek, here!). It would appear from comments he makes in this letter that he, indeed, was a Christian.

As to Lincoln - there are several claims from his contemporaries that he was saved at one time or another in his life. And there were a few pastors who claimed he came to them and that they led him to the Lord. So, what is to be believed? Who knows!

Chiniquy was an interesting man. I don't know that I would say he was a fraud (don't know for sure) - but Jack Chick (the one who printed the book) has been known to front frauds in the past, so I've wondered...The history that is presented in the book is amazing - his path from Catholicism to Christianity is a great read. I don't doubt that he felt that the Jesuits were behind Lincoln's assassination, but I have to seriously wonder...I don't suppose we'll know until we get to Heaven, and by then it won't matter.

I do have the Chick book Fifty Years in The Church of Rome, which I believe is an abridged version of the original. When I bought it from a local Christian Bookshop, I could have bought an origial used version, pre Chick. The shop also had his later book, Forty Years in the Church of Christ. Which I did not buy and have never read. The owner of the shop actually looked like Abraham Lincoln, and my wife still refers to him as such, as she often can't remember his name. Unfortunately he had an epileptic fit while crossing a road about 20 years ago and was hit by a car and killed.

Oliver Cromwell's dying words are reported to be "Is it posible to fall from Grace?" "No, it is not posible to fall from Grace." "Then I am safe, because I know I was once in Grace."

[Guest]

Back to the OP...I've read the 1st Innaugural Address and they are right on about Lincoln's sentiment toward slaves. Lincoln was more interested in preserving the union.

[John81]

All the evidence we have available seems to indicate Lincoln himself was not saved. He rejected the deity of Christ. His wife and closest friends all said Lincoln was not a Christian. Those who came forth after his death proclaiming Lincoln had been secretly saved or baptized contradict one another and investigations into those claims have all come up negative.

Whether speaking of Lincoln or anyone else, it would be wrong to hold them up as a Christian, and especially as a Christian role model, with no clear proof they were saved and with no track record of the fruits of salvation.

Yes, Lincoln was determined that no State, or States, would be allowed to leave the union, with much of this having to do with tax and power issues. The one thing Lincoln made clear that would lead to war was if the seceeded States didn't collect and send taxes to DC.

When the first few States seceeded, there were many in New England that said "good riddance", for they were content to be separated from them. Many in what is now the Midwest thought the seceeded States should be left alone and allowed to pursue their own course.

Only seven States originally seceeded. The other States that would seceed only did so after Lincoln demanded that they raise up troops to be used by him to invade the original seceeded States.

As with most wars in our history, this one could have been avoided, but such was not to be. Had Jeffersons vision for America, which was shared by many of the Founders, were followed, the separation of some of the States would have been welcomed and strong ties of peace and commerce immediately forged between them. Jefferson forsaw that as America continued to grow in size there would come a point where the central (federal) government would determine to dominate the States and the Republic and liberty would be sacrificed.

[JerryNumbers]

What right did he have to force the Southern States to stay in the union? What did he do with freedom, seems he threw it out and tried to be a dictator telling the Southern States what they could or couldn't do. And look as how much blood was shed, and be on his hands. Can a truly great moral man have that much blood on his hands?

[Invicta]

What right did he have to force the Southern States to stay in the union? What did he do with freedom, seems he threw it out and tried to be a dictator telling the Southern States what they could or couldn't do. And look as how much blood was shed, and be on his hands. Can a truly great moral man have that much blood on his hands?

I don't know what right he had.

I once read that Oliver Cromwell tried to emigrate to America but the king's troops took him off the ship. If he managed to leave, England may have still been under a Catholic monarchy and the history of America may have been different. Edited March 4, 2011 by Invicta