Are there two wills in God?

[Yankee Candle]

I agree.

I don't.

Best wishes.

[heartstrings]

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

His "will" is already done in Heaven. But we are to pray for the "will" to be done "in earth".
Is this one will, or two?

[John81]

Some preachers preach about God's permissive will and His perfect will. While this sounds like it could be viewed as "two wills", I don't believe this is the case.

God has a perfect will for all of us even though He knows we won't abide in such. His permissive will is what He allows, knowing we can't/won't abide in His perfect will. Whichever we are in, we are in God's will.

Did I say this so it's understandable?

[anime4christ]

Yeah, but that's looking at it from a different perspective. It fails to explain the verses which say that God will do all His will. That's the will that seems to be different from the revealed will since people go against God's revealed will all the time. This is the decretive will.

[heartstrings]

Yeah, but that's looking at it from a different perspective. It fails to explain the verses which say that God will do all His will. That's the will that seems to be different from the revealed will since people go against God's revealed will all the time. This is the decretive will.

You have those chapter and verses?

[anime4christ]

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. - Isaiah 46:9-11

[Brother Rick]

It was a very lengthy article, so I just skimmed it. I got the idea of it, and I thought it was well written.

I think this is a sticky widget, but there are some things we can know for sure.

1. Without a doubt, there are things that God allows to happen that are wrong and sinful, such as Christ being crucified.
2. God does send strong delusion and he actually asked for a lying spirit to decieve a king. (I Kings 22, II Thes. 2:11)
3. God Himself doesn't lie or tempt people to sin. (Titus 1:2, James 1:13)

These truths need to fit with these other truths:

1. God is not willing that any should perish. (I Peter 5:2)
2. God hardens people's hearts after they have hardened their own several times, as in the case of Pharoah.
3. God gives people over to a reprOBate mind once they've continually refused to acknowledge Him. (Rom. 1:28)


The only way it fits with me, is that God allows bad things to happen but He doesn't make them happen. It's as though He knows what is going to happen, and perhaps puts people in a position to where it can happen. He doesn't tempt people to sin though, so we have to be careful about how far we take that.

The Bible does teach unconditonal election, but it also teaches free will. The only way that God can mean what He says when He says, "Whosoever will may come..." is if that election is a corporate election of the body of Christ, and not an individual election as Calvinism teaches.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[JerryNumbers]

Anime,
In today's English, we use the word "want".
"I want Anime to abandon his Calvinistic doctrine but he does not want to."
In the language of the KIng James Bible, that would read more like: "I would that Anime.....but he would not". "Would" is one of the forms of the word "will".

God does not always get what he "wants" or "wills".......
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

I would say it like this, we don't always do what God wants us to, yet in the end God's will will be done.

There would actually be only one way for us to always do what God wants us to do, and that would be by God taking away our free will. It seems quite clear to me that He will never do that, not even to one of His own children when they do wrong, fall into sin, and breaks His heart, although He will chasten them.

Thanks to God's mercy and grace that even though we don't do as He wants us to that He works it out for our good. Without that we would be in some very bad situations.

[anime4christ]

I would almost agree with you Rick. The points I would disagree on are these:

1. God does not only allow bad things to happen, but He brings them about as well. However, He does not sin.

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. - Deuteronomy 32:39

The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. - 1 Samuel 2:6

Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. - Jeremiah 11:11 (Many like passages: Jeremiah 4:6, Jeremiah 6:19, Jeremiah 19:3, etc.)

2. Also, while I do believe that people have a will of their own, the Bible does not teach that is is free, but rather that is in bondage to sin prior to regeneration.

Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. - Galatians 4:2-4

Romans 6 talks a lot about it too.

Romans 9 seems to be talking about individuals. Really, the only reason people argue against it is because they don't like it. It doesn't fit with their sense of justice. It is not because Romans 9 really seems to be talking about something other than individual double predestination.

Anyway, back on the original topic though, I guess you would agree that there are two distinct wills that are talked about in the Bible when it talks about God's will (and you don't have to be Calvinist to see that), right Rick?

[anime4christ]

I would say it like this, we don't always do what God wants us to, yet in the end God's will will be done.

There would actually be only one way for us to always do what God wants us to do, and that would be by God taking away our free will. It seems quite clear to me that He will never do that, not even to one of His own children when they do wrong, fall into sin, and breaks His heart, although He will chasten them.

Thanks to God's mercy and grace that even though we don't do as He wants us to that He works it out for our good. Without that we would be in some very bad situations.

The choices we make are always influenced by circumstances. We weigh the evidence and choose what would seem to be the choice which will yield the better outcome. Sometimes we make a choice and then change our mind based on new information which is revealed to us which was not revealed before. Where is the freedom there to just choose what we want? We are so dependent on what is revealed to us in all our choices. What we all want is happiness, and our choices our influenced by what we currently believe will bring us the most joy. No freedom there, the pursuit of happiness is inevitable. Also, when we make choices, sometimes circumstances stop us and hinder those decisions. We often cannot do what we planned to and often must do what we did not plan to. Once again, our "free" will is being infringed upon. And yet we still claim that we are free to do what we will. No, our will is inclined towards our happiness and is therefore dependent on what is revealed to it to choose anything. Also, when we do choose, our ability to do what we will is often hindered by circumstances. The big question is: Who is in control of what is revealed to us and who is in control of circumstances? God or man? It is ludicrous to claim that man is in control of that. The only option left is God. Therefore the will of man, while plainly existent, is far from free. Edited October 8, 2010 by anime4christ

[Brother Rick]

I would almost agree with you Rick. The points I would disagree on are these:

1. God does not only allow bad things to happen, but He brings them about as well. However, He does not sin.

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. - Deuteronomy 32:39

The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. - 1 Samuel 2:6

Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. - Jeremiah 11:11 (Many like passages: Jeremiah 4:6, Jeremiah 6:19, Jeremiah 19:3, etc.)

I'd agree with that.

2. Also, while I do believe that people have a will of their own, the Bible does not teach that is is free, but rather that is in bondage to sin prior to regeneration.

Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. - Galatians 4:2-4

Romans 6 talks a lot about it too.

John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Whether man's will originally was free or corrupt is irrelevant. Jesus promised to draw all men unto Himself after Calvary, so if nothing else every man has free will since then.

Romans 9 seems to be talking about individuals. Really, the only reason people argue against it is because they don't like it. It doesn't fit with their sense of justice. It is not because Romans 9 really seems to be talking about something other than individual double predestination.

Romans 9 is talking about God hardening people and creating vessels unto wrath. The example we have for that is Pharaoh, whom God hardened after Pharaoh had already hardened himself over and over again. Regardless, Romans 9 doesn't mention predestination. No passage in the New Testament speaks of people being predestinated to getting saved, and every verse that mentions people being predestinated to Heaven or getting a new body does it within the context of being in the body of Christ, therefore it is the body of Christ (a corporate election) that is predestinated.

Anyway, back on the original topic though, I guess you would agree that there are two distinct wills that are talked about in the Bible when it talks about God's will (and you don't have to be Calvinist to see that), right Rick?

I'm willing to consider it.

Are you willing to consider that unconditional election is a corporate election? Edited October 8, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[anime4christ]

I'm willing to consider it.

Are you willing to consider that unconditional election is a corporate election?

If there is ample evidence for it. I have not seen it from plain reading of the scriptures so far. However, I will not consider it solely for the sake of someone else considering another Biblical truth. As in, I will consider it on its own merit rather than a "I'll consider that if you consider this" sort of mutual agreement. Our goal is to just understand the scriptures as God intended them rather than to compromise our individual theological understandings. Edited October 8, 2010 by anime4christ

[Brother Rick]

If there is ample evidence for it. I have not seen it from plain reading of the scriptures so far. However, I will not consider it solely for the sake of someone else considering another Biblical truth. As in, I will consider it on its own merit rather than a "I'll consider that if you consider this" sort of mutual agreement. Our goal is to just understand the scriptures as God intended them rather than to compromise our individual theological understandings.

People are always predestinated within the context of being "in Christ", as in "...he hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation..." and "...IN WHOM also we have OBtained an inheritance, being predestinated..."

More on that click here Edited October 8, 2010 by Rick Schworer