Here we go...

[Anon]

You read the whole book over and over last night??????

[Alumentum]

Yes, I have to or I wont understand it. X / Of course, reading this book over and over was much more enjoyable then reading a chapter of math over and over.

[Brother Rick]

Just a few verses on who God is:

Is 57:15, "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."


It says here that God "inhabiteth eternity". Meaning, He lives outside of time and space. We can't possibly relate to it, we have to just accept it by faith. See, that's how Christians are supposed to operate. We believe the Bible, and if we don't understand something it doesn't make it NOT so - we just have to accept it and maybe later on we'll understand it.


Phil. 2:5-11, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not rOBbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became OBedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."


These verses show a lot of things. It shows the relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ, who, though they are the same ONE God they are also different. Another thing that is not easy to understand - God is not like we are! These verses also show the progression that Jesus made to become man, and the personal sacrifice He went through to do it.


Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Matthew 1:23, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

Luke 1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Hebrews 10:5-7, "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God."


These verses show that Jesus was born of a virgin. There was no sex involved in Christ's birth. God, who is the Creator, simply created a body for the Son to grow up in and live a Human life in.


Hebrews 4:14-16, "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
[16] Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may OBtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."


You said you could relate to your gods because they did wrong things too. Please don't take offense to this, but if your gods are great and mighty (like basically supped up super heroes) but show human weakness when it comes to morality (how many women did Zeus and Poseidon rape?) it makes me think they're nothing more than ideas made by man. What Pagan God is sinless, and requires holiness? Our God does. He says man at his best state is altogether vanity. He really doesn't have anything good to say about man, that we're all a bunch of sinners bent on having our own way, that anything good we could ever do in our own strength is worthless rags tainted by our sin natures. No man made God would ever say that, because that is extremely offensive to man.

HOWEVER, You can still relate to Jesus, but not because He ever did anything wrong. You can relate to Him because in every general area of life He was tempted with sin, but He never sinned. As God, He performed miracles, healed the sick, fed people out of thin air, rose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven. As man, He experienced fatigue, loneliness, temptation to sin, rejection, hunger, thirst - everything. He was BOTH, 100% of each at the same time. It's heavy stuff, but God is not going to be someone who is quantifiable within our own rational. He is much greater than that.


Like I said, faith.

Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Hebrews 11:6, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Edited June 24, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Alumentum]

Just a few verses on who God is:

Is 57:15, "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."


It says here that God "inhabiteth eternity". Meaning, He lives outside of time and space. We can't possibly relate to it, we have to just accept it by faith. See, that's how Christians are supposed to operate. We believe the Bible, and if we don't understand something it doesn't make it NOT so - we just have to accept it and maybe later on we'll understand it.


Phil. 2:5-11, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not rOBbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became OBedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."


These verses show a lot of things. It shows the relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ, who, though they are the same ONE God they are also different. Another thing that is not easy to understand - God is not like we are! These verses also show the progression that Jesus made to become man, and the personal sacrifice He went through to do it.


Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Matthew 1:23, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

Luke 1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Hebrews 10:5-7, "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God."


These verses show that Jesus was born of a virgin. There was no sex involved in Christ's birth. God, who is the Creator, simply created a body for the Son to grow up in and live a Human life in.


Hebrews 4:14-16, "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
[16] Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may OBtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."


You said you could relate to your gods because they did wrong things too. Please don't take offense to this, but if your gods are great and mighty (like basically supped up super heroes) but show human weakness when it comes to morality (how many women did Zeus and Poseidon rape?) it makes me think they're nothing more than ideas made by man. What Pagan God is sinless, and requires holiness? Our God does. He says man at his best state is altogether vanity. He really doesn't have anything good to say about man, that we're all a bunch of sinners bent on having our own way, that anything good we could ever do in our own strength is worthless rags tainted by our sin natures. No man made God would ever say that, because that is extremely offensive to man.

HOWEVER, You can still relate to Jesus, but not because He ever did anything wrong. You can relate to Him because in every general area of life He was tempted with sin, but He never sinned. As God, He performed miracles, healed the sick, fed people out of thin air, rose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven. As man, He experienced fatigue, loneliness, temptation to sin, rejection, hunger, thirst - everything. He was BOTH, 100% of each at the same time. It's heavy stuff, but God is not going to be someone who is quantifiable within our own rational. He is much greater than that.


Like I said, faith.

Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Hebrews 11:6, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

So to be Christian means to have faith and the courage to remain faithful to God despite what happens to you or not being able to understand? As God, he isn't immune to what we feel but, he is immune to doing wrong?

Also, I don't view that as an attack at all. I understand what you mean though. However, Zeus and Poseidon are greek gods and not gods that I worship. I have a grasp on what some sins are but, I don't know enough to say that my gods are sinless or not.

I hope you don't take offense to this though. If I had to compare Jesus to one of my own gods, it would be Balder. Balder is the god of peace, joy, innocence and is a son of Odin. Balder is destined to be killed, and when he is, the Finall Battle will start and will result in the destruction of all of the worlds and most gods and giants. When the Tree of Life is brought back from the ashes, Balder will resurrect himself and remake the worlds.

The difference between him and Jesus is that Jesus has no beginning or end while Balder has a father(Odin) and a mother(Frigg). But, I don't have anything else to compare him to for right now. Maybe when I learn more I wont have a need to compare anything.

[Brother Rick]

So to be Christian means to have faith and the courage to remain faithful to God despite what happens to you or not being able to understand?

Being a Christian is defined by two things:

1. Standing.

When a person gets saved from the penalty of their sins (becomes a Christian), he now becomes a child of God. It is a second birth, we are born again spiritually into the family of God. This cannot be changed. Biologically, you will always be the son of your biological father - no matter what. Same thing as a Christian. When a person becomes a Christian, they are essentially trading their righteousness (everything that makes them worthy of anything, be it good or bad) for the righteousness of Jesus Christ. When we do that, our standing before God is based in Jesus Christ, not ourselves. Our standing is secure and forever unchanging, no matter what we are children of God.

II Corinthians 5:21, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

John 1:11-14, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."


2. State.

On earth, Christians face things. Many times we have the courage to do what is right and to overcome things, but many times we fail. Many times we sin. God is now our Father, and we relate to Him on that level and that's how He relates to us. When we sin, our relationship with God suffers, but we are still His children. We ask for forgiveness of everyday sins, and it makes us have a better relationship with Him. So when it comes to our everyday state - yes, being a Christian means having the courage and faith to remain faithful to God no matter what. Many men and women have died or been tortured for their faith in Christ. They didn't give their lives because they felt they had to, they did it because they loved God.

I John 4:14-19, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
[15] Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
[16] And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
[17] Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
[18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
[19] We love him, because he first loved us."

As God, he isn't immune to what we feel but, he is immune to doing wrong?

Exactly.

[Alumentum]

O.O why were they killed for being Christian? I've heard of the Holocaust and stuff like that but, everything I've read about was aimed at Islamic or Jewish people who I don't know anything about either.

So they died because they had faith that God would be with them until the end and after it, not because it was their duty to do so?

[Brother Rick]

O.O why were they killed for being Christian? I've heard of the Holocaust and stuff like that but, everything I've read about was aimed at Islamic or Jewish people who I don't know anything about either.

So they died because they had faith that God would be with them until the end and after it, not because it was their duty to do so?

Ironically, for the first couple hundred years after Christ, Christians were killed and torchered by Pagans in Rome! They refused to worship or give honor to any other god except the one true God, Jesus Christ. For that, they were fed to lions, put on stakes in the ground and covered in tar and burnt to death, put in boiling oil... all sorts of things. The more the pagans tried to kill the Christians, the faster they multiplied. Church history is an amazing thing. Edited June 24, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Alumentum]

Oh......

I think I remember something about Romans not accepting Christians at first. I don't know much about that though. I do know a lot about the conflicts of Celts and Christians(protestant and catholic, whatever the difference is, I don't know) and the Nordic(Odinists) and Christians. X / I kinda feel bad now.

[Brother Rick]

Oh......

I think I remember something about Romans not accepting Christians at first. I don't know much about that though. I do know a lot about the conflicts of Celts and Christians(protestant and catholic, whatever the difference is, I don't know) and the Nordic(Odinists) and Christians. X / I kinda feel bad now.

Don't feel bad, Nick, there's no reason to. You weren't the one lighting them up.

One thing that is amazing about Christian martyrs over the years, is that so many times they said things like martys in the Bible said...

Luke 23:33-36, "And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
[34] Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
[35] And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
[36] And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,"

Acts 7:59-60, "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
[60] And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

This is not natural, it is not human or normal to be like this.

When a person becomes a Christian, something amazing happens within them. It's supernatural. You saw in that verse that Jesus loved those men that crucified Him, and He asked the Father to forgive them for what they were doing, which is AMAZING when you consider what they were doing to Him. Then Stephen was killed in Acts 7, and he asked that God wouldn't hold this against those who killed him.

II Cor. 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

When a person gets saved, he's changed from the inside out. He is made a "new creature", as it says in this verse. He is forgiven of all his sins, forever, and is given a new awakening to God and the Bible. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer and guides and comforts him. Over a period of time, a believer grows in Christ. Very often, martyrs were so strong in the faith that they loved the Lord so much they had the same attitude He had towards those that killed Him. Edited June 24, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Alumentum]

Don't feel bad, Nick, there's no reason to. You weren't the one lighting them up.

One thing that is amazing about Christian martyrs over the years, is that so many times they said things like martys in the Bible said...

Luke 23:33-36, "And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
[34] Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
[35] And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
[36] And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,"

Acts 7:59-60, "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
[60] And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

This is not natural, it is not human or normal to be like this.

When a person becomes a Christian, something amazing happens within them. It's supernatural. You saw in that verse that Jesus loved those men that crucified Him, and He asked the Father to forgive them for what they were doing, which is AMAZING when you consider what they were doing to Him. Then Stephen was killed in Acts 7, and he asked that God wouldn't hold this against those who killed him.

II Cor. 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

When a person gets saved, he's changed from the inside out. He is made a "new creature", as it says in this verse. He is forgiven of all his sins, forever, and is given a new awakening to God and the Bible. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer and guides and comforts him. Over a period of time, a believer grows in Christ. Very often, martyrs were so strong in the faith that they loved the Lord so much they had the same attitude He had towards those that killed Him.

This is another one of those things that confuses the junk out of me. The reponse of the Christians and Jesus towards their attackers is so much more different than the response of what an Odinist would do. If we're to come under attack, we're expected to fight back bravely, even if it means dieing. I'm not sure what other pagens believe though, perhaps they're different.

[Anon]

I'm having such a hard time understanding why you live with a Baptist family yet you seem like you've never been exposed to anything but Paganism???

[Alumentum]

I'm having such a hard time understanding why you live with a Baptist family yet you seem like you've never been exposed to anything but Paganism???

Ah well yeah that would be kinda hard to understand. Well, my biological parents were Odinists. They raised me with the same beliefs but, when I was about twelve, they passed away. I was put into the adoption system and got adopted when I was 13. Things didn't work out with that family and I was put back into the system. I was adopted by my current family only about 10 months ago. They have made an effort to try and get me to convert but, by that I mean they make small suggestions every now and then. I haven't heard them mention anything about it for the last 3 months or so though. Explain everything?

[Brother Rick]

This is another one of those things that confuses the junk out of me. The reponse of the Christians and Jesus towards their attackers is so much more different than the response of what an Odinist would do. If we're to come under attack, we're expected to fight back bravely, even if it means dieing. I'm not sure what other pagens believe though, perhaps they're different.

Well, we're not a bunch of pacifists, and the Bible doesn't teach that as far as I know. I think anyone of us here would prefer to put a hole through someone who is trying to hurt our families then just let them do whatever heinous thing they wanted to do.

But the heart is different, and it's something that comes from God. With Stephen and many other martyrs they willingly accepted their deaths, and sought ways to glorify Christ in it.

[HappyChristian]

Self-defense, defense of one's family and country are not the same thing as fighting back because of religious persecution. The martyrs were killed because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - not only back in Roman times, but it happens still today in some countries. And will come to America (gentler types of persecution have begun to abound here). There is a difference between defending against someone who is attacking your person, family or country and defending yourself against persecution (even to the death) for belief in Christ.

[Alumentum]

It's just so different. Christians go to heaven because of their faith in their God, Odinists go to heaven based on how well the pleased the gods with their actions. The greater the person you are the greater your after life. Most of the time this means dieing while fighting.

Anyways, I told my parents about what I have been up to( they prOBably thought I was looking at porn or something for the last three days ) and they were ecstatic. I asked them about finding a new church here and they said they'll give it a shot. The small prOBlem with this is that we live in a small town. Most people here don't like me very much and I just don't want this to end up like last time.