Prayer 4

[irishman]

[JerryNumbers]

Not to be picky, but why phrase it this way, "Each time we pray it is as if we are ushered by angels to the throne room of God?" Where is it you get the idea when we pray we are ushered by angels to the throne of grace?

I just don't remember reading anything in the Bible that suggest this. If it was true, would not that mean we had more than one mediator between us and the Father?


1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

[irishman]

Not to be picky, but why phrase it this way, "Each time we pray it is as if we are ushered by angels to the throne room of God?" Where is it you get the idea when we pray we are ushered by angels to the throne of grace?

I just don't remember reading anything in the Bible that suggest this. If it was true, would not that mean we had more than one mediator between us and the Father?


1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jerry,
I used that phrase as merely an expression, but one might make a likeness to Psa. 100.

consider Lazarus and the rich man: "Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;" The angels actually carried him to Abrahahm's bosom.


"Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing." (v.2)

And then the fact that we are (in the same sense( approaching God;

"Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name." (v. 4)

I do not say that this psalm is a prayer, but it is rendering to God our praise, and "coming before His presence" (His throne?)

Also, see Heb. 4:16, where we can apply this to the New Testament church today. How else can we come before His throne, but by prayer?


as for angels, well that is only used metaphorically, "AS IF' we were ushered by the angels...of course they do not intercede for us as Mediator. The entire thought is not to be taken too literally, but metaphorically.

[JerryNumbers]

Expressing it that way makes beautiful poetic reading, yet its dangerous. Why? Such things as that is what many false doctrines are built on and may lead someone to believe something that is not true.

The verses you gave are great, but they have nothing whatsoever to do with angels ushering us to the throne room of God when praying.

I agree. like Lazarus, when we die God send angels for us, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with our prayer life, for as we seem to agree completely, only Jesus stands between us an God.

Expressing it that way makes beautiful poetic reading, yet its dangerous. Why? Someone may build false doctrine on it, especially a young Christian.

The verses you gave are great, but they have nothing whatsoever to do with angels ushering us to the throne room of God.

I agree. like Lazarus, when we die God send angels for us, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with us praying, only what takes place at the death of those who have Jesus as Savior.

[Invicta]

I agree Jerry.

There is a hymn, praise my soul the King of heaven. On brother told me that he will never choose to sing the last verse because it is pure Romanism.

Angels, help us to adore Him;
Ye behold Him face to face;
Sun and moon, bow down before Him,
Dwellers all in time and space.
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Praise with us the God of grace.

Some of our hymn book compilers must agree as they change the words of the first two lines to
Angels in the heights adore him,
They behold him face to face

[JerryNumbers]

For sure. I like to be careful and play it safe. If you don't you can be adding to before you know it, and or influence someone else to, No doubt some songs get it wrong.

Wish I could remember the name of the hymn in one of our song books, a few years back our song leader mentioned it and stated, "It sound pretty, but the message in the song is not quite right, you will never hear that one flow from my mouth." He was quite clear, if a song was not scriptural, he would not use it no matter how good it sounded. We need many more like that.

[irishman]

Expressing it that way makes beautiful poetic reading, yet its dangerous. Why? Such things as that is what many false doctrines are built on and may lead someone to believe something that is not true.

The verses you gave are great, but they have nothing whatsoever to do with angels ushering us to the throne room of God when praying.

I agree. like Lazarus, when we die God send angels for us, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with our prayer life, for as we seem to agree completely, only Jesus stands between us an God.

Expressing it that way makes beautiful poetic reading, yet its dangerous. Why? Someone may build false doctrine on it, especially a young Christian.

The verses you gave are great, but they have nothing whatsoever to do with angels ushering us to the throne room of God.

I agree. like Lazarus, when we die God send angels for us, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with us praying, only what takes place at the death of those who have Jesus as Savior.

Jerry, I omitted the words "by angels" in the original post. Never thought about it causing any prOBlems, or being offensive to anyone. Thank you for pointing out that someone might build their doctrine off an error like that. I usually try to be very careful and can back most statements up with scripture. I was focusing on another point, and overlooked that one.

[JerryNumbers]

Your welcome, I surely was not trying to be mean spirited, not at all. I just have the fear of someone taking something wrong and going with it. As for me, I surely would hate to do such a thing.

[Invicta]

My wife used to play the piano on occasions for our church. She was not a particularly good pianist and had difficulty playing modern songs. She also would not play any song or hymn which she considered unscriptural and would not sing. She was told that if a preacher or pastor chose a hymn, it was not up to her to refuse to play it. (She agrees with me on hymns which are not scriptural.) I said that in that case I would not allow her to play.

It seems to me that many will sing lustily, hymns, which if they really considered the words, they would not sing.

[irishman]

My wife used to play the piano on occasions for our church. She was not a particularly good pianist and had difficulty playing modern songs. She also would not play any song or hymn which she considered unscriptural and would not sing. She was told that if a preacher or pastor chose a hymn, it was not up to her to refuse to play it. (She agrees with me on hymns which are not scriptural.) I said that in that case I would not allow her to play.

It seems to me that many will sing lustily, hymns, which if they really considered the words, they would not sing.

Actually there are many hymns that are not entirely scriptural, but if a person has to have hymns select their doctrine, they may have a prOBlem in the first place. Many Christmas songs could not be sung as well in church. I believe that too many select the unscriptural they do not want to sing, but sing some others. One example is "It will be worth it all" when we see Jesus... it is already worth it all now!

We would be very limited in what songs we sing if we follow that concept 100%

[Seth Doty]

Actually there are many hymns that are not entirely scriptural, but if a person has to have hymns select their doctrine, they may have a prOBlem in the first place. Many Christmas songs could not be sung as well in church. I believe that too many select the unscriptural they do not want to sing, but sing some others. One example is "It will be worth it all" when we see Jesus... it is already worth it all now!

We would be very limited in what songs we sing if we follow that concept 100%

While there are indeed a small number of not completely scriptural hymns sung, I am not sure I would include that particular hymn as being "unscriptural". After all we do have this verse:

"1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

[irishman]

While there are indeed a small number of not completely scriptural hymns sung, I am not sure I would include that particular hymn as being "unscriptural". After all we do have this verse:

"1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

Even though we have some truth in a hymn, are we to ignore the false? Another Christmas song speaks of "Angels bending near the earth to touch their harps of gold" Do angels have harps? Someone can build a lot from that.

[Seth Doty]

Even though we have some truth in a hymn, are we to ignore the false? Another Christmas song speaks of "Angels bending near the earth to touch their harps of gold" Do angels have harps? Someone can build a lot from that.

While it is certainly possible some angels may play harps in praise to the Lord(God commanded the use of cymbals, harps, and psalteries in the worship in the temple so he OBviously likes it) your right there is nothing in scripture that says that they do. The four and twenty elders and the tribulation saints are mentioned as having harps in the book of Revelation but of course they are not angels. If someone didn't want to sing that Christmas song due to lack of biblical support for a couple of phrases I would understand their reasoning.

[JerryNumbers]

Our song leader use to sing a song that was in our hymn book, Try Jesus. I spoke of that song a bit on one of my sermons and he has never sang it again. How in the world do you try one Jesus as you would a pair of gloves? The song sounds good, but the words don't seem proper to me.

If the words are wrong, them someone needs to speak up, and that song should not be sang in church.

There be many ways that we need to content for the faith.