Baptist going to jail for praying in school staff mtg before meal

[lilyamongthorns]

Shesh! Freedom of religion does not mean the same as freedom from religion.

ptwild - I do believe that of the 56 people that signed the Declaration, only 2 were speculated deists (Jefferson and Franklin, though both were also noted as Episcopalians) and only 2 were unitarians (Adams and Paine, though both were also known as congregationalists). Four of 56 is not even close to a majority. Take a look at the early presidents as well, vast majority are Christians. Whether any of them were Christians or not is still widely speculated. There are many quotes from the founding fathers that show, at the very least, they respected and wanted Christianity. This is particularly true in the later years of life or presidency. I agree with HappyChristian, read through their writings (diaries, letters to friends) and you will see the admiration they had for our Savior. Here are just two, you can look up the rest:

Ben Franklin: 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to a friend in 1816: "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

Or so I learned in my very liberal public school AP US History class a couple years ago, and again in my college American Literature class, and again in my college US History course. I could be wrong of course, but that is what I was taught. My AP US History teacher was a loud and proud atheist, so for him to teach this shows something.

[Kubel]

Are you saying we are to only pray in private?

Just saying that if these people chose to follow Matthew 6:6 at that time, they probably wouldn't be in any trouble in this case.

What makes Christians feel that they have to get up in front of everyone else and publicly announce their praying (one on one communication with God) to everyone else? When we as the audience pray while someone is up there praying, do we really just echo that persons words when we pray to God? Because if so, that's kind of strange and somewhat vain (reminds me of Catholicism, and the verse that follows that talks about vain repetition). I know most people will say "no, I pray my own words to God", but then it brings me to the question, Why do we even have a "prayer leader" anyway? Like I said, it's vain. I'm pretty sure God wants people coming to Him individually, not as one massive colony of drones saying the same thing just because some guy standing up is saying it. Reminds me of religion. I hate religion.

Also, these people made an agreement that they would not sponsor prayer during public paid time- and they broke their word. It would have also helped them to remember what Proverbs 19:5 says.

A false witness shall not be unpunished, and [he that] speaketh lies shall not escape.

Also, think about this: If this were a Muslim, would you want your taxdollars going toward public Muslim prayers? We can't have it one way but not the other. That's why I'm a Christian and am actually against introducing Christian teachings into government stuff. It's opening the doors to something that may be good, but it's also opening the doors to very bad things. Who's to say Christians will be the majority in the US a few years from now. If we open the doors to Christian stuff, we may very well be opening the doors to Pagans, Muslims, etc... It's best for Christians to keep government secular. That doesn't mean we restrict the free exercise of ones faith, but it does mean that government employees do not sponsor it while on the clock and at the taxpayers dollar.

I can't help but feel that this case of public prayer is not quite as noble as people are making it out to be.

[JerryNumbers]

So, your against group prayer.

Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Jas 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
Jas 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Them you would be against the above, after all it would be group prayer instructed by God's Word and it would be just the word of the one leading the prayer.

Group prayer, so you would be against the Sunday School leader leading the class in prayer before class, isn't it great for the Sunday school class to pray before Bible study asking for the help of the Holy Spirit.

You would be against the pastor leading a prayer before the sermon, of course he more than likely would be asking for God's help, remember now, that would be a group prayer you spoke against.

Our Sunday school superintendent, before he give the devotional, he leads us in prayer, but that's another group prayer which you seem to be against.

I suppose the church you attend does not have any such prayers, I suppose that only because you seem to be against a prayer leader.

What about the benediction at the end of services, I suppose this is another prayer you would stand against.

Amazing to me you would want to leave out so much praying, I must say I completely fail to understand you on this one.

I don't know about people agreeing not to pray in public places, no, as for me I have never made an agreement not to pray in public places, and I would not put myself in a place where any such prayer was outlawed, and I surely would never agree to anyone that I would not pray wherever I am, after all the only line I have between God and myself, is the prayer line. The child of God is in a very dangerous position when they have their prayer line cut off, after all we never know when an emergency will come up. It might be someone had a heart attack, it might be a child is sick, any number of emergencies could come up.

And of course, its just great to say a prayer before eating, thanking God for your food, where ever you may be, and someone leading the prayer is a very accepted thing in our Christians communities, as least it is in the ones I've been around. I would avoid those places that I could not pray, even if it cost me money, God is more important to me, after all this life is for only a few years, my time with God and my Savior will be forever.

I'm not trying to be smarty about this, just trying to understand, in my 62 years I have never heard a Christian be so out spoken about not praying in group situations with a prayer leader.

[ptwild]

Isn't group prayer the whole idea behind communal service to begin with. The several members of the body of Christ come together once a week (at least) to worship and learn as one. In the Anglican Church, there are no individual prayers other than when the priest prays aloud that his sermon be acceptable to the Lord and when he prays that the body as a whole be absolved of its sin. Every other prayer which is said aloud is pre-printed and and read by the congregation in unison. If we were only meant for one on one communication with God, then why do we have a worship service to begin with?

[1Timothy115]

If you have time visit... the Florida Baptist Witness
http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/10511.article
...where I found the following. There are is a lot more discussion, background, and links into this persecution.

[bzmomo7]

If you have time visit... the Florida Baptist Witness
http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/10511.article
...where I found the following. There are is a lot more discussion, background, and links into this persecution.

[Kubel]

Them you would be against the above, after all it would be group prayer instructed by God's Word and it would be just the word of the one leading the prayer.

It seems in your post that you took offense to my position. No need to get snappy, I'm just pointing out scripture and my own view, and I'm not trying to force a debate here. I'm certainly not judging you or your church for how you go about practicing your religion.

I don't see how any of those cases you demonstrated are "prayer leader" or "group praying" examples, nor do I see any verse that says prayer must be publicly led like this. I think it's possible and more likely for elders to pray over a sick person one-by-one, rather than electing one person to say all the words while the rest just follow along. I also think it's possible and likely that it's saying to confess your faults one to another (singular) and to pray individually for someone in private.

I don't think that those verses all MUST be public prayer led by one person while everyone else just drones on and follows.

Couldn't the staff at this meeting have prayed in secret like Jesus suggested in Matthew 6? Also, they are liars. They made an agreement and they broke it. Not quite so noble, in my mind, when I read that part.

Anyway, on to Matthew 6:5-8

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Again, don't think I'm judging you here and saying you are a hypocrite or pray publicly for other people to see you- but just try to understand where I'm coming from. My point is: There is NO benefit praying publicly to people when the listener of the prayer is none other than God. Prayer is not something that you elect a single person to do for you (though it may be in Judaism and Catholicism). Prayer is one-on-one communication with God.

So I think in this case, since there was no benefit to public prayer (and we see Jesus himself wanting people to pray to him in secret), I feel they could have gone about it differently (mainly by keeping their word, and praying in secret).

Again, not condemning anyone for praying publicly. Just saying that I believe there's a better way to pray. And that is, Don't pray to people. Pray to God.

And for the record, our church does do public prayers. They are also KJVO. I disagree with both, although I don't let either of those issues bother me enough to get angry or cause me to separate over.

[JerryNumbers]

It seems in your post that you took offense to my position. No need to get snappy, I'm just pointing out scripture and my own view, and I'm not trying to force a debate here. I'm certainly not judging you or your church for how you go about practicing your religion.

I don't see how any of those cases you demonstrated are "prayer leader" or "group praying" examples, nor do I see any verse that says prayer must be publicly led like this. I think it's possible and more likely for elders to pray over a sick person one-by-one, rather than electing one person to say all the words while the rest just follow along. I also think it's possible and likely that it's saying to confess your faults one to another (singular) and to pray individually for someone in private.

I don't think that those verses all MUST be public prayer led by one person while everyone else just drones on and follows.

Couldn't the staff at this meeting have prayed in secret like Jesus suggested in Matthew 6? Also, they are liars. They made an agreement and they broke it. Not quite so noble, in my mind, when I read that part.

Anyway, on to Matthew 6:5-8


Again, don't think I'm judging you here and saying you are a hypocrite or pray publicly for other people to see you- but just try to understand where I'm coming from. My point is: There is NO benefit praying publicly to people when the listener of the prayer is none other than God. Prayer is not something that you elect a single person to do for you (though it may be in Judaism and Catholicism). Prayer is one-on-one communication with God.

So I think in this case, since there was no benefit to public prayer (and we see Jesus himself wanting people to pray to him in secret), I feel they could have gone about it differently (mainly by keeping their word, and praying in secret).

Again, not condemning anyone for praying publicly. Just saying that I believe there's a better way to pray. And that is, Don't pray to people. Pray to God.

And for the record, our church does do public prayers. They are also KJVO. I disagree with both, although I don't let either of those issues bother me enough to get angry or cause me to separate over.

The last words from my post you replied to.

I wrote,
"I'm not trying to be smarty about this, just trying to understand, in my 62 years I have never heard a Christian be so out spoken about not praying in group situations with a prayer leader."

I still don't understand your thoughts on this, and I don't believe you could explain them, for I feel your completely wrong.

But of course there be some people who would pray so that people can hear them and not to God, but that is a personal problem between them and God, hopefully if they're in church they will come to the knowledge of were they're wrong and repent.