2 Last Trumpets?

[Madeline]

I am a Pre-Tribber but have a few questions that question the pre-trib view.

In 1 Cor. 15:52 it reads: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Then in Rev. 11:15 it reads: And the seventh angel sounded (7th or Last Trumpet); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In 1 Cor. 15:52 Paul speaks of the Last Trumpet being blown, then in Rev. 11:15 there is another Last Trumpet being blown. In Rev. 11:15 the Last Trumpet being blown is AFTER the Tribulation, not before. If this is supposedly a different Trumpet, then how can there be 2 Last Trumpets? It seems odd how there are 2 LAST Trumpets.

Love,
Madeline

[deputydog530]

Good question Madeline, I need to go do some study and try to get back to you. Im a pre triber also.

[deputydog530]

Ok, had to go back and do some reading. The "last trump" in 1 Cor 15:52 is the rapture which we clearly see. This trumpet is blown by God 1 Thess 4:16-17.

Rev 11:15 is the last of the seven trumpets of judgement in the tribulation. This trumpet is blown by an angel, not the Lord.

Context would show that these trumpets are not a chornoligical listing but rather a point in time for separate events.

Hope that helps

Tim

[Madeline]

Ok, had to go back and do some reading. The "last trump" in 1 Cor 15:52 is the rapture which we clearly see. This trumpet is blown by God 1 Thess 4:16-17.

Rev 11:15 is the last of the seven trumpets of judgement in the tribulation. This trumpet is blown by an angel, not the Lord.

Context would show that these trumpets are not a chornoligical listing but rather a point in time for separate events.

Hope that helps

Tim

One more question. Why is the Trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thess. 4:16,17 referred to as the "Last" Trumpet? What are the preceding trumpets, because I can't find any other place in scripture where there are preceding trumpets before the "Last" trumpet found in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thess. 4:16,17 other than the one found in Rev. 11:15. Thanks in advance!

Love,
Madeline

[PreacherBen]

One more question. Why is the Trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thess. 4:16,17 referred to as the "Last" Trumpet? What are the preceding trumpets, because I can't find any other place in scripture where there are preceding trumpets before the "Last" trumpet found in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thess. 4:16,17 other than the one found in Rev. 11:15. Thanks in advance!

Love,
Madeline

Of course this flies in the face of everything we currently view in light of a pretribulational rapture, but consider the following verses:

Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
Rev 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
Rev 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
Rev 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What if this is the last trump, notice the similarities.
Could the finished mystery of verse 7 be the same as the following:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I, too, have looked for the other trumpets and these are the only one's I can find. I leave plenty of room to be corrected, but I still have found no other explanation for the prior trumpets that make the Last Trump the last trump.

What I am currently studying is:
Is their a separate trumpet for the Church and for Israel? I am inclined to think so because the trumpet of Matt. 24 happens after the great tribulation. Notice:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Because I know that God has not appointed us to wrath:

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Their seems to be a different last trump for Israel and for the Church.(?)

However, your logic is not flawed, there has to be at least a "first trump" if the second is to be called "the last trump."

I'll keep digging.

PB

[Revelation3:20]

I am a Pre-Tribber but have a few questions that question the pre-trib view.

In 1 Cor. 15:52 it reads: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Then in Rev. 11:15 it reads: And the seventh angel sounded (7th or Last Trumpet); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In 1 Cor. 15:52 Paul speaks of the Last Trumpet being blown, then in Rev. 11:15 there is another Last Trumpet being blown. In Rev. 11:15 the Last Trumpet being blown is AFTER the Tribulation, not before. If this is supposedly a different Trumpet, then how can there be 2 Last Trumpets? It seems odd how there are 2 LAST Trumpets.

Love,
Madeline

I am not 100% certain on this but this is what came to mind when I read your post. Through out scripture the presence of God is often symbolized by the sound of a trumpet. When God spoke with Moses and Israel out of the mount it was with a noise of a trumpet and with a voice. The walls of Jericho did not fall till the sound of the trumpet was made. Gideon obtained victory when he and his men blew the trumpets and smashed their pitchers and held up their lamps(beautiful picture of what is needed for victory in the Christian life btw). If Israel was ever oppressed and going to war, God instructed them to do this: "Numbers 10:9 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies."

This was a picture of the presence of God going with them.

Given this is the case and given the frequency the Lord uses pictures, When the "last trump" is blown it may be it is called the "last trump" as a symbol of the great presence of God at the rapture and the subsequent departure of that presence and glory with the departure of the saved from the earth(I am aware that the Holy Spirit will not be completely gone from the earth, but the manner and degree of his working will change).

These are just some thoughts in the formative process that may be reworked or thrown out all together as I continue to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. :coolsmiley:

[Wilchbla]

I am a Pre-Tribber but have a few questions that question the pre-trib view.

In 1 Cor. 15:52 it reads: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Then in Rev. 11:15 it reads: And the seventh angel sounded (7th or Last Trumpet); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In 1 Cor. 15:52 Paul speaks of the Last Trumpet being blown, then in Rev. 11:15 there is another Last Trumpet being blown. In Rev. 11:15 the Last Trumpet being blown is AFTER the Tribulation, not before. If this is supposedly a different Trumpet, then how can there be 2 Last Trumpets? It seems odd how there are 2 LAST Trumpets.

Love,
Madeline

Hi Madeline. Paul doesn't say the last trumpet blown or the seventh trumpet blown. He says the LAST TRUMP of the trumpet. The trump is the noise of the trumpet. So after the last sound of the trumpet we shall go up. In Revelation after the seventh trumpet we come down. The trumpet Paul is speaking of and the one John mentions in Revelation are two different trumpets occuring at two different times in God's prophetic calendar.

[LindaR]

From Defender's Bible Notes (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 11:15)

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:52

15:52 the last trump. Paul is not referring to the last of the seven trumpets in the Apocalypse (Revelation 8:2; 11:15), for the book of Revelation had not yet been written and Paul obviously intended for the Corinthians to understand what he meant. The sounding of an angelic trumpet at the resurrection day had also been mentioned in I Thessalonians 4:16. Trumpets were traditionally associated with calls to action (e.g., I Corinthians 14:8; Judges 7:20), and this particular trumpet sounded in heaven will call all saints, living and dead, to ascend into heaven to meet the returning Christ. It is, therefore,

[Eric Stahl]

Time Line


The middle of the tribulation is at the end of the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe. Notice in

Rev 8:13 that the last 3 trumpets are so terrible they are called woes. In Rev 9:12

the 1st woe and 5th trumpet are past. In Revelation chapter 11 the two witnesses

that will serve for 1260 days or half of the tribulation come and after they have

finished their 1260 day testimony they are killed within an hour of the end of the

6th trumpet and second woe.

The 7th trumpet starts the last woe when the devil is cast to

the earth because the devil is the judgment on the earth.See Revelation 12:7-14 Notice he has a short time

left to hurt the Jews and the earth. It last for a time, times and half a time or three

and a half years while he persecutes the woman or Israel. The 7th trumpet and 3rd

woe last for all of the great tribulation, which is the last half of the time of Jacob's

trouble. Notice Rev 11:15 says the "KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE

KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD. AND HIS CHRIST” "at the blowing of the 7th trumpet.

Look at Isaiah 24:21-22 KJV. When God cast the devil to the earth with the kings of

the earth, they are in prison. Yes God and Christ have taken ownership of earth at

the 7th trump but they do not take possession till the end of the tribulation.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Eric Stahl