The Repentance Issue::: revisited

[1Timothy115]

Hello Dave,

I have been a Christian for 38 years this coming Spring.

What version of the Bible do you prefer, you don't have to justify your answer?

[kevinmiller]

What version of the Bible do you prefer, you don't have to justify your answer?

What does this have to do with the topic?

[Guest Guest]

Everything beyond this point was Zacchaeus' surrender AFTER he was saved. I believe Zacchaeus wanted to be more than saved, but also wanted to be a disciple.

You can't be saved without also being a disciple of Christ. A disciple is simply a follower or pupil of a teacher. As it is written:

"John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

The very act of coming to Christ requires that an individual become a disciple of God. Otherwise they are still in unbelief.

Being a disciple does involve work and obedience--BUT NOT TO BE SAVED. These two aspects of redemption MUST be kept separate. When a blending of the two occurs you have contradictions in The Word of God.

You are mistaken. Being a PROFITABLE disciple is what involves work and obedience.

"John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus."

How was Joseph of Arimathaea obeying Christ when he wouldn't even publicly admit that he believed for fear of the Jews? This verse is just saying that he was a believer in Christ.

You just can't support that it is possible to be saved without also being a disciple from scripture. Judas was a disciple without being a believer, but the reverse is not possible.

[Carrierwave~]

Carrierwave,

"You do not seem to understand what is meant by "repentance from sin". It is a heart condition not a work. For example, on the one hand when Peter denied the Lord he went out and "wept bitterly" afterward. He repented of his sin. He understood what he had done and his heart turned from that causing him to weep bitterly. His repentance did effect his actions later but actions are a product of repentance rather than being repentance itself. On the other hand we have Judas, he also understood that he had sinned and even verbally admitted it. He felt guilt and even said "I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood." However, he had no true change of heart about his sin, he wasn't willing to surrender to God, he simply felt bad that Jesus was condemned to die. His actions later showed that."

Hello Seth,

I can assuredly say I know what the BIBLE says "repentance" means. You must admit there is a complete difference between Peter and Judas. Peter was a saved man. Judas was never saved. Both represent the two conditions of all peoples of the world. Since Peter was already saved when he denied the Lord, therefore his error and sin effected his discipleship(fellowship) and not his SALVATION. However, Judas is said to have "repented" but did not believe in Jesus as the Christ. Because Judas was not saved and refused Christ as his Messiah before he died, his eternal destiny was Hell.

Peter had TRUSTED CHRIST at his confession of faith in the well-known passage Mat 16:16. Peter received his new name at that time. Judas, instead of *confessing* his own sinfulness to God and receiving salvation by believing on Jesus as Christ, went out and hanged himself. Judas did not repent (change his mind) from his *unbelief* in Christ. Judas was trusting his works. He confessed he had "sinned" but refused the Savior.

You see, Peter's repentance was to *restore* his discipleship/fellowship, NOT his SALVATION. Judas repentance should have been *TO* trust Christ *FROM* his unbelief so he could BE SAVED! There is the difference. One involved a believer and his WORKS--to restore fellowship, the other involved an unsaved man and his FAITHLESSNESS by rejecting Christ for his SALVATION. Judas did not have to SURRENDER his life to be saved. He needed a change in his "TRUST" by believing on Jesus. (Not of works)

Those other verses you used are dealing with *DISCIPLESHIP* not *SALVATION*. Nowhere in Paul's doctrinal studies of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, which were specifically written to detail the fine points GRACE SALVATION are we told to "hate father and mother" in order to be saved! Faith alone is the agent throughout ALL of Paul's epistles. However, *Discipleship* sent many a believer to the lions, to be burned at the stake, boiled in oil, beheaded, exile and imprisonment. It is much more difficult to be a "disciple indeed" than to be "born again". You seem to not see the difference between what it takes to be saved, and what it is to be a disciple. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE and they should not be confused together.

Carrierwave~

[Carrierwave~]

Seth,

We will be judged as *Christians* on the basis of our discipleship--how well you followed Christ. At the bema seat our works will determine our rewards or lack of rewards. (1Cor 3:11-15)

1Co 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ"
1Co 3:12 "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;"
1Co 3:13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


It is the quality of our discipleship that counts. 5 kinds of crowns make up the rewards for believers. One can be enrolled in a class but flunk the course. Many believers were afraid to confess Christ openly because of the Jews for fear of being cast out of the Synagogue. Not all of them followed Christ perfectly, neither do we. I feel Jesus meant being MY was different from being just "a" disciple. Again, you can be a pupil in a class but flunk the course. (As did Judas; a disciple in name only)

Carrierwave~

[Carrierwave~]

What version of the Bible do you prefer, you don't have to justify your answer?

I used the KJV and textus receptus Greek texts in my studies.

[JerryNumbers]

I used the KJV and textus receptus Greek texts in my studies.

Seems to me that many make salvation very diffcult, I feel if it was presented to me in such a diffcult manner I would not have been saved 48 years ago at 14 years of age.

[Carrierwave~]

Seems to me that many make salvation very diffcult, I feel if it was presented to me in such a diffcult manner I would not have been saved 48 years ago at 14 years of age.

Simple FAITH in What Jesus did for you at Calvary is all it takes--The Holy Spirit does the rest!

Carrierwave~

[1Timothy115]

I used the KJV and textus receptus Greek texts in my studies.

Are you a Bible scholar, that is, formally trained? Did you translate the Greek yourself or, use an English-Greek lexicon; if lexicon, what was the author?s name?

[kevinmiller]

Are you a Bible scholar, that is, formally trained? Did you translate the Greek yourself or, use an English-Greek lexicon; if lexicon, what was the author?s name?

Are you saying that she needs to have formal training to understand the Bible?

[1Timothy115]

Are you saying that she needs to have formal training to understand the Bible?

Nope.

[Carrierwave~]

Are you a Bible scholar, that is, formally trained? Did you translate the Greek yourself or, use an English-Greek lexicon; if lexicon, what was the author?s name?

Bachelor of Science in Pastoral Theology. I have had Greek/Hebrew studies in college. Most lexicons in use today are published with Westcott and Hort renderings even though they will not say so in the credits, so I do not trust them. I prefer Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised Edition. It was originally publish in 1852. There are lots Greek tables for parsing sentences/words, root words, ect.

The King James version has a marvelous way of defining ITSELF. I always look first within the text and context and usually will find definitions to words found in synonyms in the passages before or after.

Bible Scholar? No way! Just simply use the tools God has graciously left us. The KJV Bible is the greatest tool available.

[Guest Guest]

Agreed. I agree with some of what you have been saying, however, you seem to be very "hung up" on the term "repentance" and seem to consider it a "work" for some reason. :loco So that I can get a better feel for where you are coming from, can I ask you if you believe that if a person prays a prayer asking God to save them they are always going to be saved based on what they said regardless of the condition of their heart`when they said it? If you do believe that you are wrong. If you do not believe that you are probably very close to our(and scriptures) position just saying it differently.

When we teach repentance this is what we are teaching:

"Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

If just the mind agrees to the truth without heart belief the person is still dead in their sins.

If you are looking for verses that specifically state "repentance" before salvation is possible here are several:

"Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

"Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;'

"Acts 26:19-21 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me."

You cannot have saving faith without having ever repented. You cannot seperate the two.
It is written:

"James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

And again:

"Psalm 138:6 Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off."

Coming to God for salvation but coming without repentance is coming in pride. He can't save someone doing that.

[1Timothy115]

Bachelor of Science in Pastoral Theology. I have had Greek/Hebrew studies in college. Most lexicons in use today are published with Westcott and Hort renderings even though they will not say so in the credits, so I do not trust them. I prefer Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised Edition. It was originally publish in 1852. There are lots Greek tables for parsing sentences/words, root words, ect.

The King James version has a marvelous way of defining ITSELF. I always look first within the text and context and usually will find definitions to words found in synonyms in the passages before or after.

Bible Scholar? No way! Just simply use the tools God has graciously left us. The KJV Bible is the greatest tool available.

I have a BS myself, where did you receive the Bachelors?

[Carrierwave~]

You said,

"Agreed. I agree with some of what you have been saying, however, you seem to be very "hung up" on the term "repentance" and seem to consider it a "work" for some reason."

Seth,

My problem is not with the Bible term "REPENT". What I am opposed to with great force is what misguided people have done to the *DEFINITION* of the word "METANOEO" (repent). It simply means "to change the mind" , "to think differently" , "to have another mind".

Greek: META = "change to another" NOEO = "knowledge","mind", "thought" or "thinking"

But what I am hearing today more and more, and on this forum from some, is a *new* and perverted definition of the word "REPENT".

Today's dictionaries declare "repent" means to: "be sorry for wrong","turn from sins", "ceasing from sin", "resolving to live according to God's Law ", "improve one's conduct". "stop disobeying God". (I gathered these definitions from various dictionaries of modern English language.) These modern definitions are a far cry from the actual Greek as used by John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus Himself, and the Apostles.

I am a firm believer in Bible-defined repentance for the salvation of the soul. The Bible term ?repent? is a transitional expression that finds it?s meaning only in the context of it?s use. For instance, God ?repented? several times in scripture. In the proper context, God ?changed His mind? (Hebrew: "nacham" repented) and reversed a decision He had previously made. He in effect, changed from one position to another position.

Example: Amos 7:6 "The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD."

It is impossible that the word ?repented? (Hebrew: "nacham", a parallel to METANOEO Greek) in Amos 7:6 could ever mean to ?turn from sins?, unless you believe that God Himself is a sinner. So the modern definition and the definition of "repent" by some of those on this forum are in error and does not fit the primary Greek word "METANOEO" (repent) "to change the mind" when used in the context of SALVATION.

The perverse idea that the word ?repent? when used in regard to SALVATION OF THE SOUL means to ?turn from your sins? or ?be willing to turn from sins? is nowhere found in the Greek definition and implies a requirement (prerequisite) of improved behavior before one can be saved. This is a bold contradiction and is "another gospel". Galatians chap. 1- 3 declare those who try to add works of the law to SALVATION are preaching a "perverted Gospel" and are under a curse.

Gal.1:6-9 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Gal 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

Seth, words mean things. If you "turn" from doing something you must STOP doing it. If you "turn" from lying you must STOP lying and START telling the truth. If you slip and tell a lie a few days later, DID YOU REALLY TURN FROM YOUR LYING?? If you tell a person they must "TURN FROM THEIR SINS"in order to be saved, it can only mean to STOP doing sins and START keeping the Law. (Sin is the transgression of the Law, 1 John 3:4) If you don't mean that, WHY ARE YOU SAYING IT? Sinners have little or no knowledge of our biblical terminology and will take your words literally, because WORDS MEAN THINGS. This is confusing poor sinners seeking the Lord. Why put a stumblingblock of and load they cannot possibly achieve when God says SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT? (Romans 6:23) Salvation must be by Grace only because sinners have NO MERIT! Romans 3:19-28 completely cancels any notions that sinners must "turn from their sins" to be saved.

God does not allow WORKS OF THE LAW in His plan of Salvation.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20 KJV)

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:28)

So then, what does it mean to REPENT when used in the context of SALVATION OF THE SOUL? Very simple.

Romans 10: 1-4 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Notice, the subject of Rom. 10:1-4 is the SALVATION of Israel; ..."that they might be saved".

Israel's spiritual problem was one of TRUST. They were trusting the wrong thing! "...going about to establish their own righteousness and have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Israel needed to "CHANGE THEIR MINDS" (repent); stop trusting their good WORKS for salvation, and start trusting Christ's WORK for salvation.

There are really only 2 religions in the world-- saved by my WORKS, or --saved by Christ's WORK. This is the "repentance" for salvation throughout the Bible. Adam and Eve repented and traded their "fig leaves"(works of their own hands), for bloody "coats of skins" (GRACE), made by God. Cain trusted the WORKS of his own hands--Abel trusted in the BLOOD OF A LAMB. (GRACE)

"Repentance" for salvation is the same today for ALL men and women. Hebrews 6:1 "..Repentance from dead works and faith toward God". OUR CHOICE: trust in your own WORKS, or trust in Christ's WORK at Calvary.

Dead works are ALL HUMAN WORKS. "Repentance" here is NOT ?turning from your sins?, (adding dead human works) but acknowledging and confessing our own sinful, lost condition, and inability to save ourselves and flee to Christ for His righteousness. "Turning from sins" is the exact opposite of GRACE salvation. Sinners can only be saved by GRACE because SINNERS HAVE NO MERIT. (Romans 3:19-20)

Establishing your own righteousness (turning from sin) for salvation is WORKS salvation; no different from Israel's error, or Cain's vegetables. It is WORKS. Grace plus works are like oil and water; they cannot be mixed. "REPENTANCE" at SALVATION is FROM our dead works, TO Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS. What are you trusting in??

Carrierwave~