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The Repentance Issue::: revisited


pneu-engine

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Your constant accusations that repentance = works gets a little old. No one here is teaching works salvation, you are merely inaccurately proclaiming we are. If "repentance" is a "work" so is "belief". :roll


Seth,

Listen carefully, "NOT OF WORKS" spoken of by Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9 are WORKS OF THE LAW. I never said "repent" was a WORK OF THE LAW, because God's definition of REPENT is NOT a work of the Law. (Where is self-condemnation; "Lord have mercy on me, I am a condemned sinner", a work of the LAW, Seth?) Could you answer this one?

But when you give the erroneous definition that "repent" means "TURN FROM SINNING", that IS WORKS OF THE LAW. The instant you mention the word SIN you have invoked the LAW into the subject. 1 John 3:4 defines sin as the transgression of the LAW. To "turn from sin" is to "turn from transgressing the Law". The only way to stop trangressing the Law is the START KEEPING THE LAW.

Rom 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Study to shew thyself approved unto God! (REPENT SETH!)

Carrierwave~
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It is also rather ludicrous to try to encapsulate "turning from sins" (your definition of repent) as a gift so it is not a WORK. That is almost laughable is it wasn't such awful, contradictory logic.


"2 Timothy 2:24-25 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;"

This passage makes it pretty clear that it is a gift.

But when you give the erroneous definition that "repent" means "TURN FROM SINNING", that IS WORKS OF THE LAW. The instant you mention the word SIN you have invoked the LAW into the subject. 1 John 3:4 defines sin as the transgression of the LAW. To "turn from sin" is to "turn from transgressing the Law". The only way to stop trangressing the Law is the START KEEPING THE LAW.


I have said several times that "turning from sin" doesn't mean you are sinless, rather that you have had a change of heart. That change of heart is needful before God can save you. It is submitting to the righteousness of God. For some reason you think that a change of heart, "turning from your sins", is a work, although I certainly don't know why you would think that...

"Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."(Yes I know that David was already saved, you don't need to tell me that, the principle is the same though)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God! (REPENT SETH!)


I haven't made up my mind if you are a troll or just have "a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." at the moment I am hoping and leaning toward the later. At any rate, I have indeed repented and turned to God and it is but a small thing that I should be judged of you. :cool
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Note the instances where God "reversed a previous decision". It is always when MAN decides to "change his mind" and believe GOD! What an awesome truth!


Your self-righteousness may consume you. God didn't reverse anything. Study further and deeper into the scriptures.
Here's a starter...
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
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And why webster's dictionary? Intransitive verb? You have been saying REPENT OF "SINS" That is not intransitive. An intransitive verb is a verb with no object. In SALVATION VERSES repent has had an understood or is a transitive verb.


Almost forgot, you are proving my point for me with that statement. :Green

If you will note websters lists your definition, "change of mind", as a intransitive verb too. Websters definition of when it is used as a transitive verb is: " to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for" which lines up very well with repentance being a change of heart as I have said all along.
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Seth said this,

"That change of heart is needful before God can save you".

Repent, Seth.

Your heart will not change until AFTER you are Born again. This is the pattern throughout the Bible.

2Co 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Tit 3:8 "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works."

"Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)


(The changes of heart didn't come until after salvation by the Spirit according to God.) Clean-up BEFORE salvation? NOT!

Repent, Seth

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(The changes of heart didn't come until after salvation by the Spirit according to God.) Clean-up BEFORE salvation? NOT!

C-W,

You're confusing reformation with repentance and versey-vice-a.

Repentance is not a clean-up act, but rather is an about-face (i.e. a 180 deg. turn of the heart) from sin to God.

Now let's go back to my original O.P.::::::::::

I still maintain that the very first part of repentance comes as a result of God's drawing us to himself when we were still dead in trespasses and sins. If and only if we respond favorably/affirmatively/positively to the "drawing" from the Holy Spirit of God then He will give us the gift of His power to run into His outstretched arms. We cannot do this on our own since the devil has us in his clutches, and we are no match at all for Satan. This is where we need The power of God to intervene on our behalf.

Consider the song, "Amazing Love", by Chas. Wesley.

Pay particular attention to the fourth verse:::::::

.And can it be that I should gain
an interest in the Savior's blood!
Died he for me? who caused his pain!
For me? who him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?


2.
'Tis mystery all: th' Immortal dies!
Who can explore his strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
to sound the depths of love divine.
'Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
let angel minds inquire no more.
'Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
let angel minds inquire no more.


3.
He left his Father's throne above
(so free, so infinite his grace!),
emptied himself of all but love,
and bled for Adam's helpless race.
'Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!
'Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!


4.
Long my imprisoned sprit lay,
fast bound in sin and nature's night;
thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.
5.
No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in him, is mine;
alive in him, my living Head,
and clothed in righteousness divine,
bold I approach th' eternal throne,
and claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th' eternal throne,
and claim the crown, through Christ my own.
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(The changes of heart didn't come until after salvation by the Spirit according to God.) Clean-up BEFORE salvation? NOT!


Clean up? No, you are again attempting to put words in my mouth. I have never said repentance is cleaning up your act, and to say that is untruthful. It would seem you yourself need to repent of deliberately misrepresenting others given that you can't possibly be making a mistake considering how many times I have clarified.

Salvation happens in this order, God draws the person, the person believes and repents(a change of heart) then Christ saves the person and they are a new creature in him.


"Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee."

"Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

"Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

"Jeremiah 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."

"Joel 2:12-13 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil."

These verses show that a degree of heart change must happen before God can save. Otherwise they are just content in their sin.


Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Again, another verse showing that salvation requires a certain amount of heart change first.
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Clean up? No, you are again attempting to put words in my mouth. I have never said repentance is cleaning up your act, and to say that is untruthful. It would seem you yourself need to repent of deliberately misrepresenting others given that you can't possibly be making a mistake considering how many times I have clarified.

Salvation happens in this order, God draws the person, the person believes and repents(a change of heart) then Christ saves the person and they are a new creature in him.


"Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee."

"Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

"Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

"Jeremiah 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."

"Joel 2:12-13 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil."

These verses show that a degree of heart change must happen before God can save. Otherwise they are just content in their sin.


Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Again, another verse showing that salvation requires a certain amount of heart change first.


The trouble with many is they have followed Carrierwave reasoning and never had a change of heat nor mind, they claim to believe, but yet they never understand the truth.

As someone has already said, The devil believes but trembles.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But he never had a change of mind nor heart, he is still the full fledged devil.

I don't believe y'all are getting anywhere with this person.
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Your self-righteousness may consume you. God didn't reverse anything. Study further and deeper into the scriptures.
Here's a starter...
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


Man's definition compared to the actual Greek words from God's Holy text are different and YOU KNOW IT.
That's the problem which you do not want to face--man's words or God's Word. Your Choice is clear, Seth

Repent, Seth
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Man's definition compared to the actual Greek words from God's Holy text are different and YOU KNOW IT.
That's the problem which you do not want to face--man's words or God's Word. Your Choice is clear, Seth

Repent, Seth

(I can just see you standing before God fumbling around trying to find a Webster's dictionary; Repent Seth)
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For the time WILL {I dare say has} come when "they" will NOT ENDURE sound doctrine. Grace isn't a blank check that wipes away the scriptures. Faith isn't a decision. Repentance isn't a work. Suggesting that Greek is needed to clarify English is humorously ignorant...like suggesting that Christ butchered the word of God by translating it from Hebrew to Greek and that all the hearers of his preaching needed a Hebrew dictionary on hand to really understand it....absurd.

Repentance is an elemental condition of heart & mind on our part wherein we, seeing ourselves as He see's us, feel truly and see clearly how revolting is the sin in which we stand....and grasp somehow how God see's it and this "seeing" and "feeling" of sin's condemnation coupled with an dawning realization of how God see's sin.... causes within us a sorrow, a regret.... a longing to be free from sin and like Him...to be seen clean in his eyes ..... A man who has professed to be "born again" who has not felt a desire to be seen as clean in God's eyes, never felt remorse or guilt or unclean in sin and had no desire to be free of it - was never saved.

How can I tell you, that Christ lives in me - whom God sent and watched him die on the cross, to cleanse me & wash me of the sin and guilt thereof - but I have never sensed, felt, realized any sorrow or regret over what had to be done, over what I was in, over what condemned me? Never did I feel soul wrending sadness over sin and feel a consuming desire to be free of it? Never did I say unto God "wash me of this sin...this stench....that I may be found of thee cleansed in the blood of the Lamb? Never did my shame bring about a desire to be washed? That desire...that sense of guilt....that sorrow of my filth, my standing.... is a condition of a penitent heart.

There are unquestionably levels of faith..... some levels of faith cannot save....some levels of faith are small and weak says the Scripture.... BUT faith can reach a point at which it becomes "saving faith". Where it is no longer weak. I suggest to you as honestly and sincerely as I know how, as a preacher under the call of God, that faith cannot touch the cross of Christ without reaching out a repentant hand.

Repentance is not a pre-salvation deed or work, but is a part of that faith which attains unto salvation.

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Repentance is an elemental condition of heart & mind on our part wherein we' date=' seeing ourselves as He see's us, feel truly and see clearly how revolting is the sin in which we stand....and grasp somehow how God see's it and this "seeing" and "feeling" of sin's condemnation coupled with an dawning realization of how God see's sin.... causes within us a sorrow, a regret.... a longing to be free from sin and like Him...to be seen clean in his eyes .....[/b']


That is the Gift from God that I am talking about. We did not get there by our own decision, but by God's love and mercy.

Thank you, Pastor Harrison for portraying it concisely and succinctly. :thumb .
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Your constant accusations that repentance = works gets a little old. No one here is teaching works salvation, you are merely inaccurately proclaiming we are. If "repentance" is a "work" so is "belief". :roll

Woah hoss!
This ain't my quote. :cool
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This issue has been discussed many times, I know that it gets boringfor mature Christians but I've recently listened to a sermon by a famous internet preacher called Steven L. Anderson (has anyone else heard of him?) and he kept insisting that those who repent are not Christians, that repentance is adding to the true commision and he mentioned also a lot of other hard-hitting stuff.

This subject makes everything more confusing.I trust Jesus as my Saviour but I cannot ignore the NT passages that deal with repentance (Matt. 3:2; Matt. 9:13; Mark 1:15; Mark 6:12; Acts 2:38; etc.), especially since God Himself requires it.

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The major groaner I have is that my O.P. was not about what repentance is, but rather that true repentance (i.e. the power and authority to turn from wickedness) is a gift that God gives to a sinner who responds in deep humility over his sin.

This issue of what repentance is and is not has been ground so fine it is like the tiniest powder. :badday::bonk:

Since my thread is already murdered to death, I wonder if a mod would be so kind as to put a padlock on it, please. :sad


.

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