Romans 8:16

[kaiserMac]

This verse was brought to my attention by a MV person. What is your take on this and why did they use "itself" and not "himself"


Ro 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Ro 8:16
The Spirit himself (auto to pneuma). The grammatical gender of pneuma is neuter as here, but the Greek used also the natural gender as we do exclusively as in Joh 16:13 ekeinos (masculine he), to pneuma (neuter). See also Joh 16:26 (ho--ekeinos). It is a grave mistake to use the neuter "it" or "itself" when referring to the Holy Spirit. Beareth witness with our spirit (summarturei tôi pneumati hêmôn). Cmt. on Ro 2:15 for this verb with associative instrumental case. See 1Jo 5:10 for this double witness.

[Jerry]

There are three places in the New Testament where this pronoun is used:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

This is because the word "Spirit" is neuter - so to be accurate and copy precisely what is in the Hebrew and Greek, in English this pronoun is used in those three verses. If someone has a problem with that, they have a problem with God and with the words He Himself inspired. The MVs and playing God by changing what is actually there because they think it should be different. Dangerous position to be in!

[kaiserMac]

Ro 8:26
¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ro 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

OK. I took a look at what you said and read a little further down. So here we have the Sprit again being refered to as "itself" but then in the next verse it refers to the word Spirit in vs 26 in vs 27 by starting out with he.

How can I explain this to be neutral when both of these verses imply it is not netural?

Thanks
KaiserMac

[Jerry]

In verse 27, the first verb (searcheth) has a masculine ending, that is why it says "he that searcheth." However, verse 26 does not have that; instead it is neuter - therefore to be literal, the exact wording would be "the Spirit itself". What do you want? A Bible they played around with, or one that gives you exactly what God inspired in the original Greek?

Besides, I don't think God is as picky as some others are - God wrote the Bible on His terms, not based on our grammar and rules. Jesus is referred to as a "thing", God is referred to as "what" (by Jesus Himself), not "whom" in another passage.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Better to have exactly what God said, then study it out to find out what is meant, than to play God and change it because it is not the way we would phrase it if we were writing it.

[brandplucked]

Hi saints. This was the verse that was criticized by Kutilek and others that first got me interested in defending the Book. These Bible critics are a silly bunch indeed.

The Spirit ITSELF

[kaiserMac]

Will,
that was an EXCELLENT post. It was exactly what I was looking for!
Thank you!
I need to look it over and study it a little. I will come back with questions if I need them.
I am a KJV only and I have been since 1996. I don't believe I will change. Its just those folks who like to tell me I am wrong. :cool

[Kubel]

In English, we don't apply a gender to a word. Instead, we apply a gender to that which is represented by the word (only if that which is represented by the word has an actual gender-- with a few exceptions, such as a ship being a she, or a baby being an it). So I feel that "Himself" is superior to "Itself", since the translators were pulling the gender from the word, and not from that which is being represented by the word (the Holy Spirit, a Person, God, definitely a "He").

[Jerry]

Kubel :puzzled: You feel that...

In Greek, each noun or verb does have a gender - and the KJV expressed it accurately. We are not discussing how someone might write an English sentence, we are referring to how something was translated from Greek to English - and Greek is precise with its pronouns - whether based on the ending of a word or an actual pronoun. There was no separate pronoun there, but there was a neuter ending to the verb.

[brandplucked]

Will,
that was an EXCELLENT post. It was exactly what I was looking for!
Thank you!
I need to look it over and study it a little. I will come back with questions if I need them.
I am a KJV only and I have been since 1996. I don't believe I will change. Its just those folks who like to tell me I am wrong. :cool

Hi brother. Great to hear from you. May God continue to strengthen your faith in His Book and increase our love for Him and one another.

All of grace,

Will K

[brandplucked]

In English, we don't apply a gender to a word. Instead, we apply a gender to that which is represented by the word (only if that which is represented by the word has an actual gender-- with a few exceptions, such as a ship being a she, or a baby being an it). So I feel that "Himself" is superior to "Itself", since the translators were pulling the gender from the word, and not from that which is being represented by the word (the Holy Spirit, a Person, God, definitely a "He").

Hi Kubel, obviously you missed the whole point of the article and the inconsistencies of the various bible translations out there. You also don't know much about English either. "My what a lovely baby. Isn't IT cute?"

Maybe what you should do is write your own bible version. This way you will be happy and you will have finally found what you might consider to be your "final authority" - Yourself.

Have a good day.

Will K

[kevinmiller]

Maybe what you should do is write your own bible version. This way you will be happy and you will have finally found what you might consider to be your "final authority" - Yourself.

Two words: CHEAP SHOT

[kaiserMac]

Ouch
:uuhm:

[manofconviction]

Another 2 words Christian encouragement....

[Kubel]

Hi Kubel, obviously you missed the whole point of the article and the inconsistencies of the various bible translations out there. You also don't know much about English either. "My what a lovely baby. Isn't IT cute?"

Maybe what you should do is write your own bible version. This way you will be happy and you will have finally found what you might consider to be your "final authority" - Yourself.

Have a good day.

Will K

"In the beginning, It created the heaven and the earth. "

To call God "It" (no matter what Person of the Trinity, and no matter what English translation- KJV or MV) seems to me just about as offensive to God as your reply was to me. Or perhaps it just shows a misunderstanding of the Holy Spirit as a Person of the Trinity, and not just some entity.

In any event, you have resorted to personal attacks in an otherwise civil discussion on the topic, so I'm out.

[John the Baptist]

Kubel :puzzled: You feel that...

In Greek, each noun or verb does have a gender - and the KJV expressed it accurately. We are not discussing how someone might write an English sentence, we are referring to how something was translated from Greek to English - and Greek is precise with its pronouns - whether based on the ending of a word or an actual pronoun. There was no separate pronoun there, but there was a neuter ending to the verb.

Rom 8:16 α