John Piper

[okjac80]

This is how it is presented on the Wikipedia site, which includes the "preservation of the saints" section as earlier quoted by "zealyouthguy".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_points_of_Calvinism

uggg, the wikipedia description of Calvinism STINKS, royally! I read it once and thought "no wonder people don't agree w/ us much".

PLEASE don't use that as a measuring stick, nor some radical ultra hyper Calvinist who doesn't even think we should witness as a basis of which to view us all. Trust me, MOST of us aren't like that at all!!

[heartstrings]

uggg, the wikipedia description of Calvinism STINKS, royally! I read it once and thought "no wonder people don't agree w/ us much".
PLEASE don't use that as a measuring stick, nor some radical ultra hyper Calvinist who doesn't even think we should witness as a basis of which to view us all. Trust me, MOST of us aren't like that at all!!

What about John Piper's description?

[dwayner79]

I read R.C. Sproul's "Chosen By God". Its a better overview of the typical Reformed position (IMO of course).

[okjac80]

What about John Piper's description?

please excuse the choppiness, I am also feeding a very squirmy little baby! LOL


IMO, he uses a lot of words and says nothing at all. I am guessing that, like most, you all are in objection to the "election" part. Right?

Well, let me explain it the way I did to my very strict Arminian grandma who, bless her heart, was almost in tears when she found out I was joining a Reformed Baptist church. After I explained it to her, she felt a little better, and while she will never "give", she doesn't get as upset about it.
Ok, here goes nothing.......

We all believe that we are in need of a Saviour, right? ...that w/o HIM, we are nothing and have no hope whatsoever and are destined to an eternity in hell, right? That salvation is a gift from God and is NOTHING of ourselves. There is nothing we can do to get that gift, it has to be given,right? Well, (and here is where we are divided) we can't come to God on our own. We can't just be walking down the street one day and decide to ON OUR OWN come to Christ. We have to FIRST be called by Christ. When we get that tug, that pull, that gentle whisper in our soul, that conviction, that time in our lives where we FINALLY and truely realize that we are sinners, nothing on our own, that we are deprived creatures in need of a saviour....than and ONLY then can we come to Christ. HE alone can stir our hearts. There, that is it. Nothing to complicated so far, right? Well, here is the question I know you all are asking: "Do we believe that someone out there has a broken heart, crying to GOd to be saved, confessing their sins, knowing in their heart that they need a saviour and God turns his back." The answer is, and forcefully stated NO!!!!! Here is why: Who put that longing in their heart? WHo laid it upon there heart that they are in need of Jesus Christ? WHo else but God! God called that person to himself and by all mean, YES, HE will save them. CHRIST ALONE CAN CALL US UNTO HIMSELF! Yes, it is hard to fully put our minds around. Spurgen (sp?) himself couldn't fully understand it. We just have to take what God says w/ faith and believe it.
My church supports missions. Of topic here, but we have built 2 churches and a school in the DR. Sadly, Noel has claimed the lives of one pastor and has leveled at least one of the chuches. Others are missing and one church is totally seperated from everything else b/c of the river. Anyway, we do witness, we d support missions, etc. How else will they hear unless someone teaches them? The door has to be open somehow.

ok, I'll close w/ that. I could go on, but the baby is needing me! LOL
Feel free to ask me anything. I am used to it! LOL

[Jerry]

God enlightens every man (in some extent) to the truth (through nature, through his conscience, and possibly through the Word of God):

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He convicts them:

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

He calls everyone, but only saves those who come to Him through Christ, who come to Him through the way of salvation He ordained:

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

God calls through the Gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is where I would disagree with the Calvinist's idea of calling. They believe those who God works in are the ones He saved - and the ones who didn't get saved are the ones He wasn't working in, calling, convicting, etc. But I find in the Bible that God convicts, enlightens, etc. all men (to some extent), and their response to that conviction, enlightenment, witness of Christ, will determine whether they get saved or not.

[heartstrings]

God enlightens every man (in some extent) to the truth (through nature, through his conscience, and possibly through the Word of God):

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He convicts them:

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

He calls everyone, but only saves those who come to Him through Christ, who come to Him through the way of salvation He ordained:

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

God calls through the Gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is where I would disagree with the Calvinist's idea of calling. They believe those who God works in are the ones He saved - and the ones who didn't get saved are the ones He wasn't working in, calling, convicting, etc. But I find in the Bible that God convicts, enlightens, etc. all men (to some extent), and their response to that conviction, enlightenment, witness of Christ, will determine whether they get saved or not.

Absolutely.

God knows the ending from the beginning. But He did not "predestine" or "elect" some to go to Heaven and others to go to Hell. God is Love.

[okjac80]

God knows the ending from the beginning. But He did not "predestine" or "elect" some to go to Heaven and others to go to Hell. God is Love.

what about the seperating the goat from the sheep?

[Jerry]

What about it? The sheep are those who have trusted Christ for salvation, and the goats are those who reject Christ. God didn't predestine someone to be a sheep, and someone else to be a goat.

[okjac80]

What about it? The sheep are those who have trusted Christ for salvation' date=' and the goats are those who reject Christ. God didn't predestine someone to be a sheep, and someone else to be a goat.[/quote']
you are taking predestined to literally.
Election is a better term.

what do you call it when God calls someone to himself, but just across the aisle is another unsaved person and God hasn't called him/her yet?

DOn't you think that God calls us to himself and that we have nothing to do w/ it? It is nothing of our own merit. Kinda' conceited to think that we do, you know?

[heartstrings]

God is love.

[Jerry]

you are taking predestined to literally.
Election is a better term.

Either way, you are teaching God chose some for Heaven and chose others for Hell - which contradicts the Bible completely. The Bible teaches that God chose all who receive Christ and are in Him to have eternal life, to have an inheritance in Christ, to be conformed to His image - and chose all who reject Christ to spend eternity in Hell.

what do you call it when God calls someone to himself, but just across the aisle is another unsaved person and God hasn't called him/her yet?

Maybe the last word is the important one here. YET. God has a person's whole life to call them, to convict them, to enlighten them. He might not do it in my lifetime - but He will do it sometime in theirs.

DOn't you think that God calls us to himself and that we have nothing to do w/ it? It is nothing of our own merit. Kinda' conceited to think that we do, you know?

Kind conceited and presumptuous to disregard the Word of God and come up with your own "logic", don't you think?

The Bible teaches that God is calling lost man through the Gospel. He saves those who receive the Gospel and the Saviour and does not save those who reject the truth and the Saviour.

Pretty clear that a person is born again and made God's child WHEN they respond positively to the Gospel.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We cannot make ourselves children of God - but when we receive the Saviour, the Holy Spirit regenerates us and puts us in the family of God. There is nowhere in the Bible where someone was saved apart from turning to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Our response, our will, is the determining factor. And yes, it is our will as enlightened, convicted, and witnessed to by the Holy Spirit - no one on these boards is ever teaching a person is saved apart from the work of the Holy Spirit - but regeneration comes afterwards, based on what we do with the Gospel and Jesus Christ - and not beforehand, forcing us to choose Christ (or reject Him if we weren't elected).

[okjac80]

but the main point is being overlooked, that is, if that person DESIRES to be saved, God alone put that desire in their heart. That is the essence of election. It isn't of ourselves, right? It is the moving of God in their hearts.

[dwayner79]

but the main point is being overlooked' date=' that is, if that person DESIRES to be saved, God alone put that desire in their heart. That is the essence of election. It isn't of ourselves, right? It is the moving of God in their hearts.[/quote']
And if it isn't, then you have something to boast about.

[Jerry]

I know where you are going and I firmly disagree. You are trying to state God put the desire to be saved in the elects' hearts, so they respond to it and get saved; however, the non-elect do not have this desire and therefore do not get saved.

The Bible teaches that there are those the Holy Spirit convicts, enlightens, witnesses to, who have the Gospel preached to them - and feel convicted by the truth, who reject the truth and the Saviour - because they chose their sin, etc. over the Word of God. That contradicts your theory. If what you said was true, there would be no people that were called and convicted that rejected the truth - because the Holy Spirit would override their personal choice and save them regardless (or make them willing regardless of their personal choice in the matter).

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

John 3:18-21 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Romans 1:19-21 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

Deuteronomy 1:26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Jeremiah 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Acts 7:51-53 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

I'm sure there are other references on this theme.

[heartstrings]

God didn't make us robots.

When a person hears the Gospel, and is convicted of sin, righteousness and judgement, which is the WORK of the Holy Ghost he has the choice to believe or reject. To "Believe" is not a work.
To "believe" is to trust in Jesus.
To repent is to "beleive" that God is right and you are wrong and turn to God from self. Happens in a split second and it is not a work because you don't do anything. You simply repent and believe the Gospel.
When I got saved, I had a choice, I remember hesitating. Then I basicly said "no" to self and "yes" to God. I turned to God. I screamed out Jesus' name before I could get out of the pew. You don't "do" anything to be saved, and God doesn't force you either. You have a choice.

edited for clarification (I hope)