Rapture Timing – Simplified.

[SGO]

I guess that the bible does not say what it says.

 

Where does it actually say it refers to the nation of Israel?

Then the KJV translators did a poor job here.

 

We are part of true Israel but that does not fit in a 220 year old system.

 

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou,

being a wild olive tree,

wert grafted in among them, and with them

partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 11:17

"among them and with them"

 

"they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,

from one end of heaven to the other,"

Matthew 24:31

[John Young]

16 hours ago, SGO said:

It's all assumption based on other doctrine.

Too complicated for me.

Why not go with actual statements?

Agreed. I would also take it a step further and ask why not just take it progressively as laid out in revelation?

[John Young]

On 2/21/2024 at 12:44 PM, SGO said:

Does any one know of verses that actually state He is coming before the Tribulation?

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, ...12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, ... 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: ... 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. ... 20 the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

[SGO]

Laid out straight:

And this is the will of him that sent me,

that every one which seeth the Son,

and believeth on him,

may have everlasting life:

and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:40

 

...every one which seeth the Son,... I will raise him up at the last day.

Every one.

The Lord Jesus Christ said that, but apparently a progression allows you to see Him before the time He set.

Then are you denying that Jesus will raise you up at the last day?

 

 

 

[John Young]

19 hours ago, SGO said:

Then are you denying that Jesus will raise you up at the last day?

Nope, I'm not denying the resurection. Yet even in resurrection there is a progression.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25 22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [the promise]

But every man in his own order: [the progression]

1. Christ the firstfruits; [Christ's church body]

2. afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. [the first fruits of the Nation/Tribulation Saints]

3. Then cometh the end, [2nd/ final resurrection]

when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

 

Edited February 29 by John Young

[SGO]

"Nope, I'm not denying the resurrection. Yet even in resurrection there is a progression."

John Young

 

That is a elusive way to not answer the question, which was, "Then are you denying that Jesus will raise you up at the last day?"

 

Are you then denying that the resurrection is at the last day?

 

And does the following phrase not include you?

 

"every one which seeth the Son,... I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:40

 

[John Young]

16 hours ago, SGO said:

That is a elusive way to not answer the question

My answer wasn't elusive at all and clearly answered your question. Yet I will lay it out a bit more for you. This thread is primarily about the rapture, yet it does tie into the resurrection. I'll go further to show what it means for our final raising up at the last day. Hopely the following is clear.

As shown above from 1 Corinthians 15:22-25 Paul clearly taught a 1. Rapture of the church and then 2. a resurrection of the tribulation saints and then 3. a final resurrection to the white throne of God. Are you denying this progression? Revelation clearly states that there are two resurrections separated by a thousand years. One for those in Christ Jesus raised and resurrected at his coming and one on the last day of the Millenium raised by God (Daniel 12:2-4).

Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: [the Church] and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; [The tribulation saints, and 144,000/New Israel] and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Then cometh the end... (1 Corinthians 15:22-25)... "every man in his own order"

This is not even to mention other raptures (taken, never dying) such as Enoch and Elijh and other raisings (died but raised to mortal life) such as Lazarus and other resurrections (from death to eternal life) such as those who rose with Christ at His crucifixion. All before the final last day resurrection.

Daniel 12:1-4 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. [first resurrection] 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. [second resurrection] 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. [church and millennium ministry] 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

On 2/28/2024 at 4:29 PM, SGO said:

The Lord Jesus Christ said that, but apparently a progression allows you to see Him before the time He set.

Then are you denying that Jesus will raise you up at the last day?

So. Many people will see (and have seen) Jesus before the "last day" and are resurrected to eternal life before the "last day" and many of us will rule and rein with him before the "last day" and so too will all born into his millennial kingdom, saved and lost, will see him rule before the last day. So, the resurrection of the believers is in and by Christ as he as ordered.

This is all to say that on the last day Christ will raise us all up when he gives the Kingdom to God to be judged on the last day of this old heaven and earth so that we are not consumed by the fervent heat of its destruction. We will be resurrected into the new heavens and the new earth by being In Christ Jesus on the last day.

2 Peter 3:11-13 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

(1 Corinthians 15:22-25....when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;)

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Philippians 3:8-11 ... 9 and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Edited March 1 by John Young

[SGO]

Well John, we obviously disagree on this issue.

 

When you read the bible, it appears that you use a template to process what is says.

That template makes it easier to understand.

Easy enough to side step and ignore plain language.

 

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,

that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,

but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:39

 

This does not fit the template, so you can ignore what the Lord said and relegate the events to other people. 

He said, "all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

But all is not really all is it?

 

Your progressions are very detailed and show you have done much study.

Many people around you hold to the same ideas.

You were taught it and believe it because you trusted your teachers as they trusted the ones that taught them.

I would suggest you look up the history of dispensationalism, that is, where it originated, from multiple sources.

Can you find anything earlier than Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby?

If you cannot, then you are not looking hard enough.

[John Young]

2 hours ago, SGO said:

When you read the bible, it appears that you use a template to process what is says.

2 hours ago, SGO said:

You were taught it and believe it because you trusted your teachers as they trusted the ones that taught them.

I would suggest you look up the history of dispensationalism, that is, where it originated, from multiple sources.

Those are your assumptions. I have no interest in studying or arguing some dispensational template or teacher nor am I interested in wasting time trying to alleviate your assumptions about me personally. I've not gleaned this form a theology book but from the plain reading of scripture. Nor have I assumed that you are being led by some false teacher. I would like the same courtesy going forward as I'm only interested in discussing the scriptures as they are written, with my fellow brethren, so that we all can learn and grow in truth. I showed you this progression in context from the overview of Revelation, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-25, Revelation 20:4-6, 2 Peter 3:11-13, Daniel 12:1-4, and etc. And I could show more if it would make a difference to advance our discussion. However, I've shown enough scripture in its context above to show it's not just my imagination or "training". Perhaps you can address those passages rather than trying to deflect to accusations that I don't believe Christ or by trying to figure out what supposed false system of theology you can place me in. If you cannot do that then this is where we'll have to end our discussion.

Edited March 2 by John Young

[SGO]

You are correct about me making assumptions and I apologize. 

 

 "I've not gleaned this from a theology book but from the plain reading of scripture."

 

Then why do you think these scriptures do not apply to you, i.e., last trump at the last day?

1 Corinthians 15:51-52, John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, and John 6:54.

 

Are they not plain enough?

 

I could not find anything in your presentations, as far as a quote from the bible, that explicitly stated He will rapture believers before the Tribulation.

 

Rather than a linking progression, please show me an explicit statement from the scripture which I have missed.

 

Thank you.

 

[John Young]

47 minutes ago, SGO said:

Then why do you think these scriptures do not apply to you, i.e., last trump at the last day?

I never said they didn't. Rather they apply to the Great White Throne Judgment when Jesus raises us up to the new heavens and new earth. Also this final raising is not the rapture of the church to heaven nor is it the resurrection to the millennium of those who are in Christ Jesus. I stated the following in regard to the final "Last Day".

On 3/1/2024 at 2:56 PM, John Young said:

1 Corinthians 15:22-25....when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,

The bible makes reference to several last days (plural) and several endings. So when making reference to a "Last Day" or any ending we also need to be clear which one that is being referenced. ie. some of them are, the last day of the great feast (John 7:37), or the last day of the gospel ministry (Matthew 24:14) or the last trump of Revelation indicating the coming of Christ to earth to start the millennium (Revelation 11:15-18, 1 Corinthians 15:52), or the final judgement of God on the last day of the millennium (1 Corinthians 15:252 Peter 3:11-13,). etc.

I also pointed out that there are special groups that are raised, raptured, or resurrected, before that final day. 
 

On 3/1/2024 at 2:56 PM, John Young said:

This is not even to mention other raptures (taken, never dying) such as Enoch and Elijh and other raisings (died but raised to mortal life) such as Lazarus and other resurrections (from death to eternal life) such as those who rose with Christ at His crucifixion. All before the final last day resurrection.

On 3/1/2024 at 2:56 PM, John Young said:

Many people will see (and have seen) Jesus before the "last day" and are resurrected to eternal life before the "last day" and many of us will rule and rein with him before the "last day" and so too will all born into his millennial kingdom, saved and lost, will see him rule before the last day. So, the resurrection of the believers is in and by Christ as he as ordered.

Finally, when it comes time for God to receive the kingdom, and judge the world with fire, the Righteous in Christ will be raised up while the wicked will be consumed.

So it applies to all who are in Christ Jesus.

Edited March 2 by John Young

[SGO]

Thank you for your response.

Still, no explicit scripture  given that actually states that the rapture will be pre-tribulation.

 

There will be no "special groups" raptured, excluding some believers. 

 

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,

that of

all

which he hath given me I should

lose nothing,

but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:39

 

No man

can come to me,

except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44

 

There is no mention of the Judgement in John 6.

The Lord plainly states he will raise up all the the Father has given Him at the last day.

 

 

[SGO]

18 minute illustrated sermon describing the differences between 1 Corinthians and Revelation (and other scriptures) concerning the rapture.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=pre-trib+rapture+error&&mid=0504023C39A9FB0C26010504023C39A9FB0C2601&&FORM=VRDGAR

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, SGO said:

Thank you for your response.

Still, no explicit scripture  given that actually states that the rapture will be pre-tribulation.

 

There will be no "special groups" raptured, excluding some believers. 

 

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,

that of

all

which he hath given me I should

lose nothing,

but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:39

 

No man

can come to me,

except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44

 

There is no mention of the Judgement in John 6.

The Lord plainly states he will raise up all the the Father has given Him at the last day.

 

 

Better come up with more than just one portion of scripture. Repeating the same shiort set of verses isn't anywhere near xomparing scripture with scripture. 

1 hour ago, SGO said:

18 minute illustrated sermon describing the differences between 1 Corinthians and Revelation (and other scriptures) concerning the rapture.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=pre-trib+rapture+error&&mid=0504023C39A9FB0C26010504023C39A9FB0C2601&&FORM=VRDGAR

This is wrong from the getgo. Rapturists believe and scripture says that the antichrist will be revealed AT THE BEGINNING of the tribulation period and will sign a seven year peace with Israel, reneging on it halfway through. That's the problem with YouTube scholars. 

[John Young]

8 hours ago, SGO said:

18 minute illustrated sermon describing the differences between 1 Corinthians and Revelation (and other scriptures) concerning the rapture.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=pre-trib+rapture+error&&mid=0504023C39A9FB0C26010504023C39A9FB0C2601&&FORM=VRDGAR

Do you agree with this group's other teachings in their entirety or are you merely referencing this one video because it purports to be debunking the pre-tribulation rapture?

Edited March 5 by John Young