The Westernization of Modern American Christianity

[lancem]

Joe, I love your little quips. (nude dude in a rude mood ) How have I been in church for 40 years and never heard that one. 

If Deuteronomy 22:5 is about cross dressing, I wonder what that looked like in those days. As Josie pointed out the men wore robes that were essentially dresses by todays standards as far as I can tell. There must have been something else about the coverings that were distinct from male to female. 

Yes I certainly agree that God looks at our heart and our reasons for wearing something more than our outward appearance. While on a mission trip I was in a situation where a woman was ashamed to come to church because she didn't have "nice" clothes. Suffice it to say what this woman owned would not have been considered modest by traditional American standards. Anyway my first thought was - "Ok we'll get you some clothes" but our interpreter wisely pointed out that the church and God would accept her even if she didn't have "nice" clothes. Eventually she came as she was and our mission team did give her some clothes at the church. So in my mind I think that interaction happened in a way that was pleasing to God and the heart of the issue was handled in a good way.

Here in the states I think we can mostly assume that people have several sets of clothes and since they have the "luxury" of choosing to be modest we have an expectation that they will submit themselves to a standard of dress that shows they value modesty and a desire to avoid being a stumbling block for others. In my mind while we don't have a specific Biblical mandate on one specific mode of dress that is acceptable, when we dress modestly we embody the values that Christ and the early church also placed great importance on. This effort to live out our belief system that we derive from the Bible in a public way, is the thing that is pleasing to God, not the adherence to a specific law or statute.

Since you asked Josie I have always bristled when someone says "America used to be a Christian nation". I don't really know what is meant by this but from the context it seems like the speaker is usually referencing some slip of general social morals in American culture since the 1960's. I don't know what a Christian nation is or when America "ceased" to be a Christian nation. I don't know if there is really a Biblical issue here to discuss or it's just me whining. 

[TheGloryLand]

When I talk about America, no longer being a Christian Nation, I’m thinking about the immorality lifestyles and a Nation that no longer is seeking direction from God or living in faith. With the liberal family lifestyles every day that goes by, we are looking more like Europe. Where yourpets or animals have more love than humans? Gay lifestyles, baby killers. drugs, killings, and the love of money. To tell you the truth if you were a Muslim, living overseas and looking at America, as I just mentioned above, you would not want that in your Country. yes, there are things over there, that we don't want over here too.

[BrotherTony]

51 minutes ago, lancem said:

Joe, I love your little quips. (nude dude in a rude mood ) How have I been in church for 40 years and never heard that one. 

If Deuteronomy 22:5 is about cross dressing, I wonder what that looked like in those days. As Josie pointed out the men wore robes that were essentially dresses by todays standards as far as I can tell. There must have been something else about the coverings that were distinct from male to female. 

Yes I certainly agree that God looks at our heart and our reasons for wearing something more than our outward appearance. While on a mission trip I was in a situation where a woman was ashamed to come to church because she didn't have "nice" clothes. Suffice it to say what this woman owned would not have been considered modest by traditional American standards. Anyway my first thought was - "Ok we'll get you some clothes" but our interpreter wisely pointed out that the church and God would accept her even if she didn't have "nice" clothes. Eventually she came as she was and our mission team did give her some clothes at the church. So in my mind I think that interaction happened in a way that was pleasing to God and the heart of the issue was handled in a good way.

Here in the states I think we can mostly assume that people have several sets of clothes and since they have the "luxury" of choosing to be modest we have an expectation that they will submit themselves to a standard of dress that shows they value modesty and a desire to avoid being a stumbling block for others. In my mind while we don't have a specific Biblical mandate on one specific mode of dress that is acceptable, when we dress modestly we embody the values that Christ and the early church also placed great importance on. This effort to live out our belief system that we derive from the Bible in a public way, is the thing that is pleasing to God, not the adherence to a specific law or statute.

Since you asked Josie I have always bristled when someone says "America used to be a Christian nation". I don't really know what is meant by this but from the context it seems like the speaker is usually referencing some slip of general social morals in American culture since the 1960's. I don't know what a Christian nation is or when America "ceased" to be a Christian nation. I don't know if there is really a Biblical issue here to discuss or it's just me whining. 

America may have been founded on Christian principles, but, it has NEVER been a Christian nation. As far as dress goes, I don't and never have made a huge deal about what someone was wearing unless it was just totally unacceptable, such as showing parts of the body that truly should have never been exposed in public. I saw far too many people osticized by IFB churches because of "unacceptable apparel" that was perfectly fine. I've seen it in SBC churches as well. I was given demerits for coming to church in my work clothes back when I was in Bible college. After clearly showing the church and the college they had no scriptural grounds they removed the demerits but suspended me for calling them on their teachings. That too was removed from my college record. Who decides what one should or shouldn't wear to church? 

[TheGloryLand]

43 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

America may have been founded on Christian principles, but, it has NEVER been a Christian nation. As far as dress goes, I don't and never have made a huge deal about what someone was wearing unless it was just totally unacceptable, such as showing parts of the body that truly should have never been exposed in public. I saw far too many people osticized by IFB churches because of "unacceptable apparel" that was perfectly fine. I've seen it in SBC churches as well. I was given demerits for coming to church in my work clothes back when I was in Bible college. After clearly showing the church and the college they had no scriptural grounds they removed the demerits but suspended me for calling them on their teachings. That too was removed from my college record. Who decides what one should or shouldn't wear to church? 

Those dress codes were pretty strictly enforced back then.

[BrotherTony]

11 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

Those dress codes were pretty strictly enforced back then.

Yes, they were, and to an extent it was understandable. But people just getting off work and coming to the service should not have been penalized. When they gave the demerits to me and others for coming in our work clothes it sent the wrong message...not only to the college students, but to the congregation. The congregation saw the hypocrisy of the leadership and voiced their disagreement. I was thankful for the good, strong few who weren't intimidated by the title of Pastor/President of the college. They continued to have declining attendance/enrollment at the college and it finally closed.

Now as far as the clothing on visitors back then, they realized reaching the lost and damaged was the mission, not being the clothing police.

[lancem]

On 7/12/2023 at 4:21 PM, TheGloryLand said:

When I talk about America, no longer being a Christian Nation, I’m thinking about the immorality lifestyles and a Nation that no longer is seeking direction from God or living in faith. With the liberal family lifestyles every day that goes by, we are looking more like Europe. Where yourpets or animals have more love than humans? Gay lifestyles, baby killers. drugs, killings, and the love of money. To tell you the truth if you were a Muslim, living overseas and looking at America, as I just mentioned above, you would not want that in your Country. yes, there are things over there, that we don't want over here too.

Yes, I don't think there is a debate that American culture today is not following God or living in faith. My question is *when* in American history was it's direction adequately following some form of Judeo-Christian ethics or worldview? When were the "good old days" when this country was on the "right path"? 

In the old testament God seemed to have no trouble defining when Israel had turned from the right path. If I can over simplify a lot of complicated Bible history - from my reading it seems this judgement of God usually came down to two criteria: the leadership of the king at that time and the worship of false idols. I guess I don't really know how to apply that standard to America so I don't really know how to define when America as a nation was pleasing to God according to biblical standards and not just my own opinions or what social values are important to me.

[TheGloryLand]

51 minutes ago, lancem said:

Yes, I don't think there is a debate that American culture today is not following God or living in faith. My question is *when* in American history was it's direction adequately following some form of Judeo-Christian ethics or worldview? When were the "good old days" when this country was on the "right path"? 

In the old testament God seemed to have no trouble defining when Israel had turned from the right path. If I can over simplify a lot of complicated Bible history - from my reading it seems this judgement of God usually came down to two criteria: the leadership of the king at that time and the worship of false idols. I guess I don't really know how to apply that standard to America so I don't really know how to define when America as a nation was pleasing to God according to biblical standards and not just my own opinions or what social values are important to me.

Over 200 years ago as far as 1776, Go back just 100 years and you could not even run for any political position unless you were a Christian. There were some that were not Christian, this was a minority group, just like the LGBTQAX are today.

[Josie]

On 7/12/2023 at 4:49 PM, BrotherTony said:

America may have been founded on Christian principles, but, it has NEVER been a Christian nation. As far as dress goes, I don't and never have made a huge deal about what someone was wearing unless it was just totally unacceptable, such as showing parts of the body that truly should have never been exposed in public. I saw far too many people osticized by IFB churches because of "unacceptable apparel" that was perfectly fine. I've seen it in SBC churches as well. I was given demerits for coming to church in my work clothes back when I was in Bible college. After clearly showing the church and the college they had no scriptural grounds they removed the demerits but suspended me for calling them on their teachings. That too was removed from my college record. Who decides what one should or shouldn't wear to church? 

Oh, BrotherTony, you’re bringing up so many memories of my own Bible College days! I couldn’t help that long Old Navy skirts didn’t meet the strict dress code of having slits being no more than an inch *below* the knee. I wish I’d known how to sew back then. I got a lot of demerits for that! You’re blessed that yours were able to be revoked. I would have given anything to work off mine, but our college’s demerits were for life! I even got to the point one semester where I got “campused” for the weekend. That was a special way of saying grounded. I’ll never be able to forget that!  

I probably would have been dismissed from college all together if they’d known about the pair of pants I snuck into the daycare where I worked! (But, really, baby gates and long skirts aren’t awesome together. They reassured guilty-feeling me that the last girl had done it, too. Lol)

I know this is off topic, but did you have good memories at Bible College? I did; and I’m still friends with many of my former classmates. I pray your experience wasn’t all bad!

Edited July 14, 2023 by Josie

[BrotherTony]

26 minutes ago, Josie said:

Oh, BrotherTony, you’re bringing up so many memories of my own Bible College days! I couldn’t help that long Old Navy skirts didn’t meet the strict dress code of having slits being no more than an inch *below* the knee. I wish I’d known how to sew back then. I got a lot of demerits for that! You’re blessed that yours were able to be revoked. I would have given anything to work off mine, but our college’s demerits were for life! I even got to the point one semester where I got “campused” for the weekend. That was a special way of saying grounded. I’ll never be able to forget that!  

I probably would have been dismissed from college all together if they’d known about the pair of pants I snuck into the daycare where I worked! (But, really, baby gates and long skirts aren’t awesome together. They reassured guilty-feeling me that the last girl had done it, too. Lol)

I know this is off topic, but did you have good memories at Bible College? I did; and I’m still friends with many of my former classmates. I pray your experience wasn’t all bad!

I had many good experiences at both Bible colleges. I've got friends from both to this day. In fact one lady I briefly dated and who was a lifetime friend, is married to a pastor friend of mine. We all went to Bible college together at the first college. Her daddy used to be my SS teacher growing up, and her family was a second family to me. The second Bible college (Maranatha in Watertown Wisconsin) was a great experience as well. A bit stuffy, but, I knew a lot of the faculty before I went there. My best friend and his wife and I met there 40 years ago. He's a pastor in Pana, Illinois.  

To be honest my wife and I went back to the first Bible college I attended, and because of church and school politics, and because the director of students knew me from the past and didn't want me, and being angry because the pastor and I had gone to Fellowship together, he and his son set in motion a series of events that led to us being asked not to re-enroll the following semester. The administration subsequently erased all of my wife's credits and one semester of mine. I was to graduate that next semester. But, I have no hard feelings towards the Brother. He let his emotions and biases rule him and it eventually cost him his position. Honestly though, he had served for many years as a pastor, and a good one at that. So, I can only believe that his health struggles had affected him at that time. He's gone to be with the Lord since then, and the college is no longer.

[Invicta]

On 7/9/2023 at 7:40 AM, Rebecca said:

I've had this conversation many times with many different people. I'm not an expert by any means, but from my observation and in conversations, it's become clear that quite a bit of American Christianity traditions started in the early 1900s: Sunday school, altar calls, passing the plate, tent revivals, order of services, preaching styles, 'three to thrive' etc.  Once someone has visited churches outside the US, it really makes you stop and think about the difference between doing something due to tradition or because it's biblical. That doesn't mean the tradition is bad/wrong, just that it may not be necessary when starting a church in a different country.  We are called to spread the gospel, not our culture or traditions.

In most independent Baptist churches around here in England will not pass a plate, have altar calls of have crosses on the walls, inside or out, and the Evangelical church I  attended before I moved here it was the same. 

General Baptists would be members of churches together, have crosses on the walls, pass plates around,  have women pastors,  and some I have heard of have lent classes,  and other RC ideas.

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

In most independent Baptist churches around here in England will not pass a plate, have altar calls of have crosses on the walls, inside or out, and the Evangelical church I  attended before I moved here it was the same. 

General Baptists would be members of churches together, have crosses on the walls, pass plates around,  have women pastors,  and some I have heard of have lent classes,  and other RC ideas.

Many SBC churches here have considered doing the lent thing. I haven't attended one that has done so, but friends of mine did. They left that church and went to a small IFB church. That was 15 years ago. Now they don't attend church at all.

[Joe Chandler]

When I was in the Marine Corps, my hair had to be cut very short, I could not have a beard, my underwear had to be folded a certain way, my uniforms had to be pressed, and my cover (hat) had to be starched. Then I went to bible college and had to listen to students complain about the standards. Boo Hoo.

As to America never being a Christian nation, I say bollocks. Our constitution was based on Deuteronomy, the Bible was our text book, the McGuffy reader was bible based. The 10 Commandments were freely displayed. Many of out founders claimed to be bible believers. Many. We had two great awakenings and many revivals.  We were one of the first nations to abolish slavery at the cost of over 600,000 lives. Now we celebrate what God calls abomination, we are taught evolution instead of creation, and public nudity abounds.

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

― John Adams

[BrotherTony]

30 minutes ago, Joe Chandler said:

When I was in the Marine Corps, my hair had to be cut very short, I could not have a beard, my underwear had to be folded a certain way, my uniforms had to be pressed, and my cover (hat) had to be starched. Then I went to bible college and had to listen to students complain about the standards. Boo Hoo.

As to America never being a Christian nation, I say bollocks. Our constitution was based on Deuteronomy, the Bible was our text book, the McGuffy reader was bible based. The 10 Commandments were freely displayed. Many of out founders claimed to be bible believers. Many. We had two great awakenings and many revivals.  We were one of the first nations to abolish slavery at the cost of over 600,000 lives. Now we celebrate what God calls abomination, we are taught evolution instead of creation, and public nudity abounds.

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

― John Adams

You're always welcome to your own opinion. Even with things BASED on "Christian" principles, it no more makes a nation Christian than working or living in a garage makes one a car. 

Man made rules being promoted as gospel is hogwash, and was part of the reason many Bible colleges felt a sharp decline in enrollment. Many Bible colleges have put their man made principles far above the Bible and common sense. 

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, Joe Chandler said:

When I was in the Marine Corps, my hair had to be cut very short, I could not have a beard, my underwear had to be folded a certain way, my uniforms had to be pressed, and my cover (hat) had to be starched. Then I went to bible college and had to listen to students complain about the standards. Boo Hoo.

As to America never being a Christian nation, I say bollocks. Our constitution was based on Deuteronomy, the Bible was our text book, the McGuffy reader was bible based. The 10 Commandments were freely displayed. Many of out founders claimed to be bible believers. Many. We had two great awakenings and many revivals.  We were one of the first nations to abolish slavery at the cost of over 600,000 lives. Now we celebrate what God calls abomination, we are taught evolution instead of creation, and public nudity abounds.

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

― John Adams

Thank you for serving in our great military. I hope they don't ever cut back here.

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

You're always welcome to your own opinion. Even with things BASED on "Christian" principles, it no more makes a nation Christian than working or living in a garage makes one a car. 

Man made rules being promoted as gospel is hogwash, and was part of the reason many Bible colleges felt a sharp decline in enrollment. Many Bible colleges have put their man made principles far above the Bible and common sense. 

Could it be the price of attending went up, to expensive? With what you also mentioned.

[BrotherTony]

33 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

Thank you for serving in our great military. I hope they don't ever cut back here.

Could it be the price of attending went up, to expensive? With what you also mentioned.

No, it couldn't. The first college was very low cost with churches subsidizing tuition.