Calvinism is an incorrect understanding of soteriology

[R Sauter]

24 minutes ago, Jerry said:

God doesn't cause or make people believe; however, He gives them the ability to believe, gives the conviction of their sins and the understanding of the Gospel, but it is still up to man to respond. No one is forced to believe (ie, forced to go to Heaven), nor is anyone forced or chosen to go to Hell - aside from their personal choices.

Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches that salvation is a gift of God, not our faith.

What the Bible teaches about election is that God chose certain things for those who would trust in Christ, and all those that do so are predestined to all those things: eternal life, inheritance, to be conformed to the image of Christ, etc. They were not predestined to believe or to not believe, to receive Christ or reject Him.

Take a closer look at the verse you are citing and note the phrase that says: "and that not of yourselves..."

You brought nothing to the table! A dead man can do nothing aside from emitting a foul stench! Read Ephesians 2 in its entirety.

Compare this with John 1:13 as understood within its full context.

[Jerry]

You brought nothing to the table? Sorry if I did not achieve your elite status.

Quit trying to make all the Bible fit your false teachings.

The Holy Spirit convicts people of their sin, enlightens them to the truth of the Gospel and who Jesus Christ is - He doesn't force or make them believe. Also, being dead spiritually is not the same thing as being dead physically. It means separation - a spiritually dead person is separated from the Lord God until they receive/respond to the Gospel.

If being spiritually dead meant man could not do ANYTHING, then man could not even sin - a physically dead body just lies there, unresponsive, neither sinning, speaking or literally doing anything.

If being spiritually dead meant mankind was unable to first respond to the preaching of the Gospel, then become regenerated afterwards by grace through faith (by the work of the Holy Spirit), then how do YOU reconcile this verse:

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

It doesn't say those who are alive will hear Jesus' voice, but those who are dead.

Calvinism puts the cart before the horse and preaches a double regeneration - first a regeneration to be enabled to respond, then regenerating again to be born again - but that means a true believer needs to be born again again - but you won't find THAT in the Bible!

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

When man responds positively to the work of conviction and enlightening of the Holy Spirit, then He regenerates them. We do not regenerate ourselves - neither does the Lord God regenerate man without man responding to their need for sin and righteousness, and turning to the Saviour.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Wait, according to your theology, how many gifts does God give man in regards to salvation? Here, it very clearly says the gift of God is eternal life, not faith.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He gave His Son, and those who received Him (John 1:12) get eternal life - same thing, salvation through believing the Saviour is the gift.

[R Sauter]

1 hour ago, Jerry said:

You brought nothing to the table? Sorry if I did not achieve your elite status.

Quit trying to make all the Bible fit your false teachings.

The Holy Spirit convicts people of their sin, enlightens them to the truth of the Gospel and who Jesus Christ is - He doesn't force or make them believe. Also, being dead spiritually is not the same thing as being dead physically. It means separation - a spiritually dead person is separated from the Lord God until they receive/respond to the Gospel.

If being spiritually dead meant man could not do ANYTHING, then man could not even sin - a physically dead body just lies there, unresponsive, neither sinning, speaking or literally doing anything.

If being spiritually dead meant mankind was unable to first respond to the preaching of the Gospel, then become regenerated afterwards by grace through faith (by the work of the Holy Spirit), then how do YOU reconcile this verse:

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

It doesn't say those who are alive will hear Jesus' voice, but those who are dead.

Calvinism puts the cart before the horse and preaches a double regeneration - first a regeneration to be enabled to respond, then regenerating again to be born again - but that means a true believer needs to be born again again - but you won't find THAT in the Bible!

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

When man responds positively to the work of conviction and enlightening of the Holy Spirit, then He regenerates them. We do not regenerate ourselves - neither does the Lord God regenerate man without man responding to their need for sin and righteousness, and turning to the Saviour.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Wait, according to your theology, how many gifts does God give man in regards to salvation? Here, it very clearly says the gift of God is eternal life, not faith.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He gave His Son, and those who received Him (John 1:12) get eternal life - same thing, salvation through believing the Saviour is the gift.

Perhaps you misunderstood me and I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You brought nothing to the table regarding your salvation! If you disagree with this then you are the heretic and there is nothing more to say.

Aside from this, I think I will remember what an old friend used to say - "A dog can whoop a skunk anytime but sometimes it just isn't worth the trouble!"

I really could care less about whether you agree or disagree with the historic doctrines of grace but you and everyone else here are intentionally misrepresenting and slandering the position and making complete donkeys of yourselves as a result. There is literally no room for honest and intelligent discussion or debate!

And no, I do not make the bible fit anything! I simply became the "Bible Believer" I claimed to be in the IFB world and studied the scriptures for what they have to say and from there, came to my own conclusion! It is you who are stuck in the "Groupthink" of your bankrupt brand of "Funny-Mental-ism" and I am content to leave you to it. Go back to circling the wagons and throwing rocks at your "Straw Man."

[Jerry]

2 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

I really could care less about whether you agree or disagree with the historic doctrines of grace but you and everyone else here are intentionally misrepresenting and slandering the position and making complete donkeys of yourselves as a result. There is literally no room for honest and intelligent discussion or debate!

I find it extremely funny that so many people who hold to heresy of some kind (Catholics, Calvinists, cultists) teach that only they can understand their false teachings. Guess what, we got the Bible, same as you - and we can gauge all teachings by it, same as you. The question is, who is right or wrong, whose theology agrees with the Bible and who is twisting the Bible to fit their theology? Calvinism DOES NOT line up with the Bible. There are many aspects of it that are straight up false teachings. We have gone through that merry-go-round countless times through the years these message boards have existed. This is just the latest one. I realize many have no interest in the endless debates - but eventually your false teachings will get refuted, until the next time some elite newbie shows up and says we all just cannot understand his own particular brand of false teachings. Thanks for playing. Next contestant, please.

[Jerry]

7 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

I simply became the "Bible Believer" I claimed to be in the IFB world and studied the scriptures for what they have to say and from there, came to my own conclusion! It is you who are stuck in the "Groupthink" of your bankrupt brand of "Funny-Mental-ism" and I am content to leave you to it.

Again, the same old same old stuff - oh, you don't believe my personal theology, you are guilty of going along with the crowd and not studying things out for yourself. That is not the case. I have spent a lot of time studying out false teachings and comparing them with the Bible, sometimes from firsthand sources and sometimes from apologetics ministries, sometimes just me and my Bible.

Besides:

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

If your theology is so esoteric only the elite or a special group of professing believers can understand it, then it is not of God. There is a simplicity in Christ that any true believer can understand if they take the time to dig into the Scriptures and study them. Sorry if I don't grasp and accept every aspect of your elite theology.

[Pastor Matt]

21 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

23 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

 If you disagree with this then you are the heretic and there is nothing more to say.

*Self proclaimed final authority 

[R Sauter]

2 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Again, the same old same old stuff - oh, you don't believe my personal theology, you are guilty of going along with the crowd and not studying things out for yourself. That is not the case. I have spent a lot of time studying out false teachings and comparing them with the Bible, sometimes from firsthand sources and sometimes from apologetics ministries, sometimes just me and my Bible.

Besides:

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

If your theology is so esoteric only the elite or a special group of professing believers can understand it, then it is not of God. There is a simplicity in Christ that any true believer can understand if they take the time to dig into the Scriptures and study them. Sorry if I don't grasp and accept every aspect of your elite theology.

If you want to debate then let's go bud!

But let's debate the actual historical view, not the inane nonsensical garbage you are spewing! You and everyone else here are being dishonest, disingenuous, and wise in your own conceits.

I am not here to push Calvinism or anything else! I'd like to have intelligent, fruitful, and intelligent discussion and I have tried to be respectful here.

[R Sauter]

1 minute ago, Pastor Matt said:

*Self proclaimed final authority 

Sir, I am actually surprised at you that you would condone such foolishness! Disagree with a position and I can accept it but to intentionally slander and mischaracterize good men who actually hold to the historical views is absolute foolishness and idiocy!

And I'll beat you to the punch here. This is an "Independent Baptist Forum" and you hold to Independent Baptist views blah, blah...

Yes, you should expect respect and courtesy. If I trash-talked the "IFB world" the way some of you knuckleheads here are trash-talking Calvinism, I am certain you would give me the left-foot of disfellowship would you not?

Please delete my account here so I may exercise secondary separation from all this foolishness.

[Pastor Matt]

2 hours ago, R Sauter said:

You brought nothing to the table!

 

35 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

Aside from this, I think I will remember what an old friend used to say - "A dog can whoop a skunk anytime but sometimes it just isn't worth the trouble!"

 

35 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

I really could care less about whether you agree or disagree with the historic doctrines of grace but you and everyone else here are intentionally misrepresenting and slandering the position and making complete donkeys of yourselves as a result. 

 

35 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

It is you who are stuck in the "Groupthink" of your bankrupt brand of "Funny-Mental-ism" and I am content to leave you to it. Go back to circling the wagons and throwing rocks at your "Straw Man."

Then this....

10 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

I'd like to have intelligent, fruitful, and intelligent discussion and I have tried to be respectful here.

Looking in from the outside (not involved in the thread), it did not seem to come across respectful. Just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

 If I trash-talked the "IFB world" the way some of you knuckleheads here are trash-talking Calvinism, I am certain you would give me the left-foot of disfellowship would you not?

Sir, you did.... 

35 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

It is you who are stuck in the "Groupthink" of your bankrupt brand of "Funny-Mental-ism" and I am content to leave you to it. Go back to circling the wagons and throwing rocks at your "Straw Man."

 

[R Sauter]

2 hours ago, R Sauter said:

You brought nothing to the table! A dead man can do nothing aside from emitting a foul stench! Read Ephesians 2 in its entirety.

Take a look at the full context. No insult, just plain, hard biblical truth! We brought NOTHING to the table regarding our salvation! This was my point! Disagree with it and you are a heretic! Not an insult, this is the whole of scripture from Genesis to Revelation in the book you are waving around and claiming to believe!

If I insulted Jerry, then I also insulted myself and all of humanity!

If you want to believe anything else, then I'll let you stand before God to answer for your own horrible theology. 

I started out respectful here. You made me otherwise. 

Please delete this account or at least let me change my username to something more abstract so it does not reflect my given name.

Goodbye.

[Pastor Matt]

53 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

Take a look at the full context. No insult, just plain, hard biblical truth! We brought NOTHING to the table regarding our salvation! This was my point! Disagree with it and you are a heretic! Not an insult, this is the whole of scripture from Genesis to Revelation in the book you are waving around and claiming to believe!

I don't understand what you are saying. "We"? ... so you're disagreeing with yourself as well as rest of us? 

53 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

I started out respectful here. You made me otherwise. 

Sir, we don't control your actions and choice of words. As far as I'm aware, you are an adult and you are accountable for what comes out of your own mouth.

53 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

Please delete this account or at least let me change my username to something more abstract so it does not reflect my given name.

I'll inactive your account according to our board rules. Just because someone does not agree with you does not make anyone a heretic. You are always welcome to post here, sorry to hear that you can agree to disagree and discuss topics in a civil way. Just for the record you were never warned or banned and is leaving on your own accord. 

 

Edited to add that I was mistaken that you have never been warned. I see a Mod warned you back in December. My apologies for that error.

[Behold]

On 3/4/2024 at 1:58 PM, BrotherTony said:

 So, really the problem is in your ideology as presented.

 

There is no problem with what i posted, as what i posted is a fact.

And when someone recognizes themselves in my post..... then of course, they have to become defensive.

As you know.

 

Edited March 7 by Behold

[Behold]

On 3/4/2024 at 2:32 PM, Jerry said:

You just labelled two FALSE religions/CULTS as Christian denominations. And those two DO teach a different gospel, a different Jesus, etc; therefore they are not of God and to be warned against and exposed.

 

 

@Jerry....That's a different topic.

So, if you want to discuss why "the cult of Mary" isn't "Christian" regarding their Galatians 1:8 "gospel" then we can do that... no prob.

1. And, so, as i was saying.... no matter the>>>>>> DENOMINATION<<<<<<<<, .. the situation is EXACTLY the same, ISSUE.

A Catholic will say...>"yes im a catholic" exactly as a Baptist will say "yes, im a Baptist".

And that was not The question, posed.

[Jerry]

27 minutes ago, Behold said:

That's a different topic.

Maybe - but you are never going to arrive at the truth in any discussion by blurring the lines of truth and error, hence the clarification.

[BrotherTony]

6 hours ago, Behold said:

 

There is no problem with what i posted, as what i posted is a fact.

And when someone recognizes themselves in my post..... then of course, they have to become defensive.

As you know.

 

There's a lot of problems with people who psint everything and everyone into their preconceived groups. I told you why as well. This place has seen it's incoming of gung ho armchair theologians such as yourself. Pointing out your error is not becoming defensive as you would like it to be. It is, however, something that many here will do when you're wrong. So, how and what would or should I or anyone else here know?