Abortion supporters

[BrotherTony]

6 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

Let see what the Dr. have to say. It seems to me, that he may have a borderline.

I'll go with the Bible, thanks. You can go with the doctor if you wish. That's between you and God.

[TheGloryLand]

5 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

I'll go with the Bible, thanks. You can go with the doctor if you wish. That's between you and God.

He is a member here, we should give him at least a chance to speak. 

[BrotherTony]

23 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

He is a member here, we should give him at least a chance to speak. 

I believe he already has, and he has a few posts back. I'm sure most here don't agree with him or his exegesis of scripture concerning this subject.

Edited April 26, 2023 by BrotherTony

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

8 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

If a woman that is pregnant 8 weeks, got a divorce, because her husband was cheating on her. With another man. She gets an abortion, is this a sin.

The divorce is not a sin. However, abortion at 8 weeks is possibly a sin as it may already be too late to avoid terminating a human being. God knows. Much prayer would be needed. 

Truth is, no one knows when ensoulment occurs. If the bones are a measure,  then at 8 weeks the somites disappear and joints start forming and, at 10 weeks, bone tissue forms and starts hardening (ossification) (Kathleen Scogna |  Medically reviewed by Liz Donner, M.D., pediatric hospitalist | Aug 18, 2021).

If one's wife was raped, or if someone's child was impregnated through incest, and they had been too embarrassed about it that they only came forward at 8 weeks, what would you do? For that matter, what would you do if it happened yesterday?

[BrotherTony]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

The divorce is not a sin. However, abortion at 8 weeks is possibly a sin as it may already be too late to avoid terminating a human being. God knows. Much prayer would be needed. 

Truth is, no one knows when ensoulment occurs. If the bones are a measure, as the ESV indicates, then at 8 weeks the somites disappear and joints start forming and, at 10 weeks, bone tissue forms and starts hardening (ossification) (Kathleen Scogna |  Medically reviewed by Liz Donner, M.D., pediatric hospitalist | Aug 18, 2021).

If one's wife was raped, or if someone's child was impregnated through incest, and they had been too embarrassed about it that they only came forward at 8 weeks, what would you do? For that matter, what would you do if it happened yesterday?

Did they try to end pregnancies in the Bible because of incest or rape?Seems to me that they all knew the sanctity of life and when it began instead of trying to use some 20th century scientific argument to try and get around the Bible. 

[TheGloryLand]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

The divorce is not a sin. However, abortion at 8 weeks is possibly a sin as it may already be too late to avoid terminating a human being. God knows. Much prayer would be needed. 

Truth is, no one knows when ensoulment occurs. If the bones are a measure, as the ESV indicates, then at 8 weeks the somites disappear and joints start forming and, at 10 weeks, bone tissue forms and starts hardening (ossification) (Kathleen Scogna |  Medically reviewed by Liz Donner, M.D., pediatric hospitalist | Aug 18, 2021).

If one's wife was raped, or if someone's child was impregnated through incest, and they had been too embarrassed about it that they only came forward at 8 weeks, what would you do? For that matter, what would you do if it happened yesterday?

Thank you for your professional, replies and answers. I believe that a person shouldn’t have an abortion ever, even in a person that was raped. She still can have the child, then let the new born to be adopted. I’m sure she will receive sponsors to cover the cost, and it’s healthy for both of them the mother and the child.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Do you really even have to ask? I think we've established that abortion is a sin...Life begins at conception. 

Below is food for thought regarding the timing of "conception" and pregnancy, and I also mention the 1 in 2 loss of zygotes: 

According to an article in Medical News Today by Villines (2022), titled, What is conception and when does it happen? 
[t]he term “conception” usually refers to fertilization, which is the first step in the biological process that leads to pregnancy. It happens when a sperm fertilizes an egg (para. 1).
Villines explains that it can take several days for sperm that has entered a woman’s vagina during sexual intercourse to make its way to the uterus to find the egg, stating that healthy sperm can survive up to 5 days in the body. Significantly, 
[c]onception does not always lead to pregnancy. A person is technically not pregnant until implantation has occurred. This is the moment when the fertilized egg implants into the lining of a uterus, which occurs around 5–6 days after fertilization. (para. 7).

Villines adds, “an estimated 50% of all fertilized eggs do not implant and leave the body the same way as unfertilized eggs do — during menstruation” (para. 8). The high loss makes the idea that zygotes are human beings seem unlikely. If so, then implantation may be the first reasonable point from which to begin considering the likelihood of personhood.

ABORTION AND THE BIBLE, Can Pro-life and Pro-choice Both Be Right?
 

[BrotherTony]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Below is food for thought regarding the timing of "conception" and pregnancy, and I also mention the 1 in 2 loss of zygotes: 

According to an article in Medical News Today by Villines (2022), titled, What is conception and when does it happen? 
[t]he term “conception” usually refers to fertilization, which is the first step in the biological process that leads to pregnancy. It happens when a sperm fertilizes an egg (para. 1).
Villines explains that it can take several days for sperm that has entered a woman’s vagina during sexual intercourse to make its way to the uterus to find the egg, stating that healthy sperm can survive up to 5 days in the body. Significantly, 
[c]onception does not always lead to pregnancy. A person is technically not pregnant until implantation has occurred. This is the moment when the fertilized egg implants into the lining of a uterus, which occurs around 5–6 days after fertilization. (para. 7).

Villines adds, “an estimated 50% of all fertilized eggs do not implant and leave the body the same way as unfertilized eggs do — during menstruation” (para. 8). The high loss makes the idea that zygotes are human beings seem unlikely. If so, then implantation may be the first reasonable point from which to begin considering the likelihood of personhood.

ABORTION AND THE BIBLE, Can Pro-life and Pro-choice Both Be Right?
 

Again, a reference to the 20th century "science" to try to get around the Bible. I'm well aware of the terminology, the science, and how that has been used to cheapen life. Also used to try to get around God's design and put it in the hands of man. 

The Bible states, "and in sin did my mother CONCEIVE me." Life..PERSONHOOD starts at conception.

Edited April 26, 2023 by BrotherTony

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

26 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Did they try to end pregnancies in the Bible because of incest or rape?Seems to me that they all knew the sanctity of life and when it began instead of trying to use some 20th century scientific argument to try and get around the Bible. 

Firstly, I'm not getting around the Bible. The Bible has always been my foundation and I have given biblical evidence of two stages in the creation of a human being. The Bible, however, leaves the exact beginning of the human spirit in the human frame a mystery.

Secondly, and only ever secondly, I have given medical evidence to show that science does not contradict the Bible but, if anything, corroborates the texts that show two stages in the formation of a human being.   

Btw, they may not have had the same means to end pregnancies then but, in some instances, they sure did try. Should we use incubators to save babies? It seems from your premise that God knows who should live or not and that we shouldn't interfere by using science.

I'm not asking us to neglect God's word but to use it properly. I believe many of us have assumptions about what each of the key biblical texts mean individually, and what the Bible as a whole has to say on this subject.

To give you an idea of my approach, this is the description of my book, ABORTION AND THE BIBLE, Can Pro-life and Pro-choice Both Be Right?

This book offers an appraisal of the more prominent biblical texts that shed light on the issue of abortion. As it seeks to give unbiased interpretations of these scriptures, the book exposes biblical assumptions and incongruent views held by both pro-life and pro-choice factions on this hotly divisive topic. 
Consideration gets made of how the predominant evangelical view - that life begins at conception - fits and contrasts with the Bible. Also, what does the Bible say about pregnancy, the unborn, miscarriage, and abortion? What does it not say? And does it answer when personhood begins? Are there circumstances where the termination of an unwanted pregnancy would be morally acceptable?

Here's an extract from the conclusion of my book: 

Humility Required

A single sperm cell and a viable egg have immense value for reproduction. More valuable still is the fused zygote, embryo, and fetus. Nevertheless, “among philosophers there is no consensus as to whether all human entities including the zygote, embryo, and fetus constitute human persons” (Miklavcic & Flaman, 2017). These philosophers include Bible-believing Christians who offer biblical support for their belief that abortion should be allowed in various circumstances. And though they are limited in the scope of biblical texts that they can appeal to, the pro-life base has nothing that proves immediate personhood at conception. On a broader note, both groups can appeal to the general witness of the Scriptures that support their views. 

Though no scriptures confirm when personhood begins, there is plenty of biblical evidence of personhood in the womb. However, the high loss of zygotes seems to indicate that this period is too soon. Likewise, the relatively high frequency of spontaneous abortions before 20 weeks, coupled with the disparity in human behavior toward the loss of early and late pregnancies, may roughly indicate a time frame for the absence and onset of personhood.

Also, the moral inconsistency seen in the willingness to terminate life conceived by rape or incest might suggest a lack of biblical certainty by evangelicals that a human being comes into existence at conception. Consequently, an open-minded discussion should continue about whether terminating a pregnancy early on is killing an unborn child or stopping the potential of personhood from manifesting.

If one seeks unity on this subject, our study and interaction must include humility, for God resists the proud (Jas. 4:6), and the fear of God that leads to wisdom (Prov. 9:10), and the love of God evidenced by obedience to His commands (1 John 5:3). These include “You shall not murder” (Exod. 20:13) and “love your enemies” (Matt. 5:44). However, don’t presuppose the only murder under scrutiny is that of the aborted unborn. The unloving approach, assumptions concerning God’s word, and lack of understanding of the topic have subjected many to feel alienated and even hated, which, biblically speaking, is akin to murder (1 John 3:15).
 

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

42 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Again, a reference to the 20th century "science" to try to get around the Bible. I'm well aware of the terminology, the science, and how that has been used to cheapen life. Also used to try to get around God's design and put it in the hands of man. 

The Bible states, "and in sin did my mother CONCEIVE me." Life..PERSONHOOD starts at conception.

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psalm 51:5). This verse appears to refer to the sin of the parents carried through at conception, the manifestation of which can occur when ensoulment occurs. Let me give a natural analogy to explain what I'm saying. The genetic code for eyesight for a person comes at conception, but the eyes are only formed later in the pregnancy.

 

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

1 hour ago, TheGloryLand said:

Thank you for your professional, replies and answers. I believe that a person shouldn’t have an abortion ever, even in a person that was raped. She still can have the child, then let the new born to be adopted. I’m sure she will receive sponsors to cover the cost, and it’s healthy for both of them the mother and the child.

In the case of your or your friend's wife being raped, are you sure you're speaking to her as Jesus would from God's word. Or is it as the Pharisees, from a limited knowledge of God's word and from assumptions you and others have concerning what the texts actually say?

What if you knew it was life-threatening for her to carry?

What of a nine-year-old?

And, what of incest?

[TheGloryLand]

49 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

In the case of your or your friend's wife being raped, are you sure you're speaking to her as Jesus would from God's word. Or is it as the Pharisees, from a limited knowledge of God's word and from assumptions you and others have concerning what the texts actually say?

What if you knew it was life-threatening for her to carry?

What of a nine-year-old?

And, what of incest?

Each case you mentioned, should be decided individually as a Pharisee or Gentile. All cases you mentioned falls under a very low percentage of people this happening too. Like Salvation, each person decides, or families, if it’s a minor involved. You will always have a more liberal view.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

3 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

Each case you mentioned, should be decided individually as a Pharisee or Gentile. All cases you mentioned falls under a very low percentage of people this happening too. Like Salvation, each person decides, or families, if it’s a minor involved. You will always have a more liberal view.

Regardless of the percentage, a false choice is often presented between murder or carrying with adoption. This is a fallacy based on unbiblical assumptions around certain texts and ignoring others. I'm offering a biblical view.

Jesus helped solve rare issues too. He also healed a man born blind, which the Pharisees opposed because they just weren't understanding the Scriptures concerning the Sabbath. 

[TheGloryLand]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Regardless of the percentage, a false choice is often presented between murder or carrying with adoption. This is a fallacy based on unbiblical assumptions around certain texts and ignoring others. I'm offering a biblical view.

Jesus helped solve rare issues too. He also healed a man born blind, which the Pharisees opposed because they just weren't understanding the Scriptures concerning the Sabbath. 

Off the subject question, do you support gay marriages.

[BrotherTony]

2 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psalm 51:5). This verse appears to refer to the sin of the parents carried through at conception, the manifestation of which can occur when ensoulment occurs. Let me give a natural analogy to explain what I'm saying. The genetic code for eyesight for a person comes at conception, but the eyes are only formed later in the pregnancy.

 

Formation and the process of formation indicates life...that's science. Life begins at  conception regardless of how long it takes something to "form." Without life, there would be no formation. Sorry, I don't buy your position.