Misunderstood thoughts...

[Genevanpreacher]

"But there is something to which I DO take a hard line. Replacement theology leads to antisemitism which then leads #1: unfair ethical treatment of Jews #2: persecution of Jews #3: actual Jewsh lives being taken by murderers"

The above quote from Rhonda Is quIte an unfaIr treatment of people that teach Covenant Theology. First off - no where have I or Ian or anyone else ever said Israel was replaced by the church. Scripture has taught that only the 'believers' came into the Promised Land in Moses' time. And Only the 'believers' make up the Church. Hence, ALL believers make up Gods chosen people.

There Is NO anti-semitism in that thinking.

Nor hatred for Jews!

[Ronda]

So then... "Genievanpreacher" Who may I ask, do these verses pertain to? What time period does it reference? And WHO are then the "remnant of this people" who will "possess all these things"

Zech 8:12 "For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

Zech 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

The church does not replace Israel in any way. We are blessed to be grafted in. They can also be grafted back in during the age of grace while God is also dealing with gentiles. (Romans 11 in it's entirety deals well with this). Another important point to always keep in mind is that we are "wild olive" having been grafted in. Romans 11:17-18 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." 

Once the church is gone, God will again return His focus upon the Jews.  In the time of Jacob's trouble (Jer. 30:7) will be a time wherein God is again directing dealing with His people Israel, and bringing the remnant through to the end. 1/3 of them will turn to the Lord then (Zech 13:9) having been refined like silver and tried like gold, and will realize exactly who Jesus is! Their Messiah (Zech 12:10). And at the end of that period Jesus Himself shall stand upon the mount of Olives (Zech 14:4) Jesus will then take His rightful place as King of kings and Lord of lords to rule and reign on this earth. The kingdom on earth will then be restored to Israel for a period of one thousand years (wherein the devil will be bound), and MANY numerous things will happen in that time period wherein God fulfills His unrevocable/unconditional LAND covenant with Israel. Just one of which is this: Zech 14:And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. AS well as the first 2 verses I noted in this post (Zech 8:12and 23) among many other numerous things... so specific in detail as to WHOM God is referring to that there is left zero doubt that God is speaking of the Jews and of Israel in specific and NOT the church.

So, it you would like to label my statements as "unfair", I have no problem with it...I get labelled all the time... sometimes "fairly" such as "Jesus freak" (Yep, I AM all in for Jesus and don't care who knows it) or sometimes unfairly, but the point is, when I do take a hard line on something (such as replacement theology) and your in your theology you claim such things as these: 

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

only the 'believers' came into the Promised Land in Moses' time. And Only the 'believers' make up the Church. Hence, ALL believers make up Gods chosen people

being the to be the be-all end-all of the matter, which discounts a TON of scripture which then would either have to be re-worded, omitted, or twisted beyond recognition, which is something I am not comfortable doing, and won't ever do intentionally. God's word means what it says and says what it means... not just the parts that sound appealing to the flesh, but ALL of it! So (for instance) in Zech.8:23 I am not ever going to be willing to replace the word "believer" with the word "Jew" (and note it does NOT NOT NOT say "spiritual Jew" it says JEW!!! Other verses much the same... very exact in wording. Why would anyone ever feel comfortable switching out/replacing words of the Bible?

It does NOT say:

Zech 8:23 "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a  spiritual jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

It does NOT say:

Zech 8:23 "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a believer, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

It actually DOES say (bold added for emphasis by me):

Zech 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

This is also a time period which has not happen yet, but WILL happen. Because God's word SAID it will.

So I do apologize if you yourself think it's unfair to label what you ascribe to as "replacement theology". But since you yourself would replace the word Jew with "spiritual Jew" or "believer" (when the word clearly doesn't say those things) you are then attempting to do exactly what I suggested: REPLACE Israel as yourself (as a "spiritual jew") . So I stand by my definition of "replacement theology".

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Ronda
spelling

[Ronda]

Additional information as per what leads to these things:
    #1: unfair ethical treatment of Jews
    #2: persecution of Jews 
    #3: actual Jewsh lives being taken by murderers

How do these things happen/escalate???

First a person will claim the church replaces Israel because all believer's are supposedly "spiritual jews".
Which next leads to saying that Jewish people aren't "really" Jewish people anymore (because they believe that the church has REPLACED them as "spiritual jews")
Next it leads to stating that they believe the Jewish people have no right to the land of Israel
(because supposedly the Jews themselves aren't really even Jews anymore which is ludicrous at the very least)
This then leads to persecution of Jews... not just Jews in Israel but Jews all over the world because they dare to believe the TRUTH that God's word gave them and unconditional/unrevocable covenant of LAND!
And then it further leads to unfair treatment, hatred, and actions against them.
For instance many nations now supporting unfair labelling of goods from the West Bank because the Jews are (supposedly) in possession of land that the U.N. claims "doesn't belong" to them.
Which is entirely ludicrous since ALL of the land belongs to them, God gave it to them unconditionally and irrevocably!

And as this unfair treatment and hatred grows and festers, it then leads to acts of violence committed against them.
History has proven this out and is currently proving it out again in Israel today.
Jesus Himself forewarned about this in John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."
I know many here would beg to differ as to the meaning of this verse, but it is clear (to me) that He is speaking of the murderous intent towards Jews (i.e. throw "you" out of synagogues... why would a Christian be IN an synagogue? Therefore the "you" are Jewish people in this instance in my understanding). 

This same ideology (straight from the devil) also reigns throughout the RCC, many methodist churches, the Greek orthodox church, the church of Christ, the mormon's the Jehovah's witnesses, and especially islam... islam also believes they have replaced Israel as God's chosen (their version of "god" who is not the true God, since their "god" supposedly has no Son). I am sure there are other religious groups which also purport to replace Israel. 
The truth is that the devil has persecuted the Jews throughout history. That hasn't changed, and each time it happens things "calm down" for a bit when the world (as a whole) sees how horrifyingly wicked these acts against Jews are. Such as after the holocaust.. many nations proclaimed never again would something like that happen, yet we see conditions ripe for the very same thing to happen NOW!

10 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

There Is NO anti-semitism in that thinking.

Nor hatred for Jews!

So while you CLAIM to have no antisemitic hatred nor ill will towards Jews... 

would you yourself buy something made in the West bank (for instance)?
Would you yourself agree that the Jews (currently residing in Israel in unbelief) have a right to live in the land?
Would you yourself speak out against the hatred towards Jewish people?
Would you yourself speak out against the murder of a Jewish person?
If your answer is "NO", then you yourself ARE contributing to the crimes against Jews, because silence IS consent.
That same silence came from many "christian" pulpits the world over when Hitler was murdering millions of Jews.
And here the world is on the same threshold of the same precursors to events happening which were also seen just prior to the  holocaust, and what do we see from many "christian" pulpits again?
Silence... yes, but even worse... many are UPHOLDING muslim claims to the land above Jewish claims to the land... straight from theses supposedly "christian" pulpits. 
What true believer who loves God would truly side with "palestinians" (islam!!!) over Jewish people???
No doubt in MY mind that replacement theology is straight from the father of lies himself!
 

[John81]

I know Muslims, Black Muslims, secular christians, non-religious who hate Jews, hold various anti-Jewish views, but thus far not a single person of the Reformed or Covenant view I've met holds such views. That's not to say some don't, but it's clear we do injustice when we paint with a broad brush.

It's like those who claim all who are conservative or want to restore America are racists who want to enslave blacks. That's simply not true even though there are certainly some out there who might hold some anti-black views.

[Ronda]

Oh, then Hitler was a muslim, a black muslim, non-religious hater of Jews??? I would not say that Hitler was in any way/shape/form a Christian... but that he himself THOUGHT that he was since he himself was raised catholic and later turned "reformed". And he himself believes he was doing "god" a good service by murdering millions of Jews. Hitler was a replacement theologist. His "Mein Kampf" book tells about how he did revere Luther who broke from the catholic church (and Hitler identified with the man since he himself also broke from catholicism ) and yet still hated Jews.  Luther also declared that Jewish people in Germany should be confined to their own homes and neighborhoods - a plan the Nazis implemented literally when they quarantined Jewish families in ghettos in Poland and other places before shipping them to the death camps for extermination. Near the end of Luther's life, he said that synagogues and Jewish schools should be burned to the ground, Jewish people run out of their homes, their prayer books and Talmudic writings burned, and the rabbis forbidden to preach or teach on penalty of death. The great reverence Hitler had for Luther's words were evident in  both "Mein Kampf" and in how he slaughtered millions of innocent Jews. Replacement theology (or supersessionism or covenant theology, whichever word they purportedly use for replacement theology) is exactly what leads to these things. Hitler is a prime example.

You (yourself) might not "know" a "single person" of the reformed or covenant views who hold such views, but I (myself) see and hear about it almost every day from people I myself have spoken with or are acquainted with.  Want to know what a replacement theologist (self proclaimed reformed/covenant/supersessionist) thinks about the Jewish people and/or Israel?  Just make one post on facebook about how Israel is being unfairly treated and you will QUICKLY find out exactly what they think, they aren't shy to tell me exactly how deep their hatred goes. And it all stems from their erroneous belief that God is done with His people. Romans 11:2 quickly dispels that theory. "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew..."  actually all of Romans 11 explains it quite well.  

[Genevanpreacher]

I love trying to wean something of importance from some posts.

(After all, I have nothing else to do.)

Rhonda? Did I say "spiritual Jew"?

Nope.

Yet you some how think I did. I am talking about people who are true believers in God and the Lord Jesus Christ with all their hearts.

Whether Jew/Israelite(OT) or Christian(NT).

Ranting on accomplishes nothing when you are basing your thinking on what you have been taught rather than accepting someone's answer who believes in Covenant Theology.

I don't believe in a "spiritual Jews" relationship at all. I believe that the only people that are God's people right now are the saved born again children of God, no matter the race.

I do believe that all the promises that God made to Israel were fulfilled. They may not be mentioned in scripture that they were, but they were eventually.

 

[Ronda]

33 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

They may not be mentioned in scripture that they were

Rather than "ranting on", so you don't have to try to "wean something of importance"  out of a post... I'll just quickly sum up that you are correct about one thing: God's future promises made to Israel were NOT mentioned in scripture as having been fulfilled yet, but for some reason that seems to be an issue that is also not "something of importance" to you as well. Strange that you can assume that "they were eventually" (fulfilled) when God's word doesn't say that they were.  I wonder why? I would certainly consider it to be something of importance myself.

Then again, maybe I should "rant on" since you (literally) say "after all, you have nothing else to do" and if I take that literally it would mean you could spend all day reading posts (made by persons such as myself) that you also say you (literally) "love" trying to wean something out of. So whether you meant it literally or not, I'll attempt to take it that way (literally rather than sarcastically, because who would want to accuse you of saying something you didn't mean to infer?) and I will now say "you're welcome", I am glad I gave you something to do which you say you love doing...  

[heartstrings]

15 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

"But there is something to which I DO take a hard line. Replacement theology leads to antisemitism which then leads #1: unfair ethical treatment of Jews #2: persecution of Jews #3: actual Jewsh lives being taken by murderers"

The above quote from Rhonda Is quIte an unfaIr treatment of people that teach Covenant Theology. First off - no where have I or Ian or anyone else ever said Israel was replaced by the church. Scripture has taught that only the 'believers' came into the Promised Land in Moses' time. And Only the 'believers' make up the Church. Hence, ALL believers make up Gods chosen people.

There Is NO anti-semitism in that thinking.

Nor hatred for Jews!

I believe I read somewhere that only those less than 20 years old went in. Doesn't say they were all believers.

Edited March 7, 2016 by heartstrings

[John81]

5 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

I believe I read somewhere that only those less than 20 years old went in. Doesn't say they were all believers.

Those of that age when their elders refused to enter the promised land. When they did enter the promised land these all were between 40-60 years old at that time. Plus any children born during that time period of 40 years. Only Joshua and Caleb were over 60 years old because they believed God the first time and God rewarded them.

[heartstrings]

OK, but age was still the criteria, was it not?

[John81]

2 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

OK, but age was still the criteria, was it not?

To an extent, yes. Those over 20 were apparently running things so responsible for the lack of obedience while those under 20 had no say.

[Genevanpreacher]

6 hours ago, heartstrings said:

I believe I read somewhere that only those less than 20 years old went in. Doesn't say they were all believers.

Hebrews 3:18,19.

Hebrews 4:1-11.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Genevanpreacher

[MountainChristian]

Joshua 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

Joshua 24:23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.

Its heart breaking to see how we (mankind) fail Jesus over and over. We try but this awful sinful flesh and all of its lusts for everything bad lead us away. They was believing in other gods while the LORD (Yahweh) was winning the battles and giving them a country to live in. Yet Yahweh was merciful and gave those people land.