The Widow's Mites

[Standing Firm In Christ]

She was manipulated into giving to thieves, just as many church members are manipulated into giving ten percent of their monetary income to thieves..  Both the widow and the church goers are deceived into believing God requires it.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Pastor Scott Markle]

12 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

She was manipulated into giving to thieves, just as many church members are manipulated into giving ten percent of their monetary income to thieves..  Both the widow and the church goers are deceived into believing God requires it.

That was not my question.  My question was whether or not she thought in her mind and believed in her heart that she was giving a gift unto God.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The text does not say what she thought in her mind.  It only reveals that thieves were robbing her and that she was putting money into the treasury of a den of thieves.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

9 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

The text does not say what she thought in her mind.  It only reveals that thieves were robbing her and that she was putting money into the treasury of a den of thieves.

False.  The text says that she was giving a gift "unto the offerings of God".

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The author also reveals that the Treasury was in a den of thieves who rob widows houses.

They may have labeled that particular receptacle "Offerings of God," but it wasn't going to God.  It was going into the hands of thieves.

Mark 11:17 (KJV) 17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

[swathdiver]

13 hours ago, Ronda said:

Dr. David Peacock from Jacksonville, Florida.  

A Ruckmanite, Hyper-Dispensationalist.  His doctrines are protestant and not baptistic.  Ever listened to his sermon on "The Deeps"?

As for the widows mites, these verses used to support such a position are out of context and therefore not biblical.  Another example of why knowledge of english and grammar rules are so important.  

[swathdiver]

9 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

She was manipulated into giving to thieves, just as many church members are manipulated into giving ten percent of their monetary income to thieves..  Both the widow and the church goers are deceived into believing God requires it.

If this were true then I would be regarding iniquity in my heart and the Lord would not hear me.  However, I've been in sweet fellowship with the Lord these last few days and he's been answering many, many prayers.  Tithing is like showering, it's something so well known that it does not require mention.  The change from food to money follows the same.

This line of thinking is the result of poor reading skills, and or, not rightly dividing the Word.  If you would submit to the Holy Ghost on this and let him teach you...  but alas you're stuck and stubborn brother.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The many in Matthew 7:21-23 obviously thought they were in fellowship with the Lord too.  As did the Self-righteous man in Luke 18:9-12, I'm sure.

God's Word says His holy tithe is agricultural.  What right do you, or anyone else, have to insist it is something other than God said it was?

The Holy Ghost will not instruct me to act contrary to the Word of God.  He is in perfect agreement with God on what God says His holy tithe is.

 And thank you for admitting that your line of thinking is "the result of poor reading skills, and or, not rightly dividing the Word".

Edited December 15, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ
Spelling correction

[Pastor Scott Markle]

12 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

The author also reveals that the Treasury was in a den of thieves who rob widows houses.

Mark 11:17 (KJV) 17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Indeed.  And the very same Author also indicated that the temple was "the temple of God" and was God's house.

Matthew 21:12-13 -- "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, and said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."
 

12 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

They may have labeled that particular receptacle "Offerings of God," but it wasn't going to God.  It was going into the hands of thieves.

Indeed, it is possible that the widow and the other givers were deceived into thinking that they were giving gifts "unto the offerings of God," when in truth they were giving "into the hands of thieves."  However, is it equally possible that the Lord Jesus Christ was so deceived?  For the Lord Jesus Christ is the very One who reported that they were giving "unto the offerings of God."  Furthermore, He did not report anything whatsoever at all unto His disciples about the givers being deceived; nor did He rebuke any of the givers for giving gifts "into the hands of thieves." 

__________________________________________

Now, earlier in this discussion you made reference unto our Lord Jesus Christ's rebuke against the scribes and Pharisees for binding "heavy burdens and grievous to be bourne" upon the people.  This rebuke is found in Matthew 23:4 -- "For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."  So then, could you explain the instruction that our Lord Jesus Christ delivered unto the multitude and unto His disciples in Matthew 23:2-3 -- "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."?

_________________________________________

In Matthew 8:1-3 God's Word gives report concerning our Lord Jesus Christ's healing of a leper -- "When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.  And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.  And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean.  And immediately his leprosy was cleansed."  Then in Matthew 8:4 we find that our Lord Jesus Christ specifically instructed this healed leper to offer his gift unto the priest at the temple -- "And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them."  If it was a bad thing to give gifts unto that wicked "den of thieves," why did our Lord Jesus Christ give this instruction unto this healed leper?

__________________________________________

Finally, let us consider our Lord Jesus Christ's "den of thieves" rebuke.  Is there any indication in the context of that rebuke concerning the specific activities whereby the thievery was occurring?  In Mark 11:15-17 God's Word give the report -- "And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; and would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.  And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves."  It appears from the immediate context that the thievery of this "den of thieves" was occurring by the means of the selling and buying of goods and by the means of the exchanging of moneys, not by the means of freewill gifts being given "unto the offering of God."

Edited December 15, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar and punctuation corrections

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The text of Luke 21 does not say the widow was giving a gift at all.  It says the MEN cast in their gifts.  It follows with the woman cast in two mites.  Mot her gift, but mites.  Her only means of survival.

 

again, since God said in the Law that widosxwere to be provided for, I highly doubt Jesus would be commending this widow for her being the supporter of wicked men.  I refuse to believe He was commending her for giving all she had to live on to wicked people.

 

you may believe what you wish, but you will never convince me that a poor widow taking all of her money to robbers is pleasing to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

it is foolish to even entertain such a notion that God is pleased when one who has little to survive on is giving all her means to thieves.  You may as well be preaching such a message with the ranks of Mike Murdock or Steve Munsey on TBN.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

19 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

The text of Luke 21 does not say the widow was giving a gift at all.  It says the MEN cast in their gifts.  It follows with the woman cast in two mites.  Mot her gift, but mites.  Her only means of survival.

 

again, since God said in the Law that widosxwere to be provided for, I highly doubt Jesus would be commending this widow for her being the supporter of wicked men.  I refuse to believe He was commending her for giving all she had to live on to wicked people.

 

you may believe what you wish, but you will never convince me that a poor widow taking all of her money to robbers is pleasing to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

it is foolish to even entertain such a notion that God is pleased when one who has little to survive on is giving all her means to thieves.  You may as well be preaching such a message with the ranks of Mike Murdock or Steve Munsey on TBN.

So then, is it your belief that the Lord our God is contrary to the sacrificial giving of the poor and needy and would never commend such a practice?

2 Corinthians 8:1-5 -- "Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.  For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.  And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God."

 

By the way, I am fully aware that I will NEVER convince you.  However, you are not the only one engaged in the discussion.  Every observer in the audience is also engaged.

[Jim_Alaska]

21 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

SFIC Said:

I highly doubt

I refuse to believe

you will never convince me 

it is foolish to even entertain such a notion that God is pleased when one who has little to survive on is giving all her means to thieves.

Scripture says:

Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

While this scripture does not address the subject in question, it does show that The Lord approves of the motive of the heart. The widow's heart was in the right place and her sacrifice is recorded in scripture and will follow her into eternity.

 

[wretched]

It is easily seen IMO that the widow was being manipulated into giving and this manipulation came from thieves posing as God's men. The overall context does indicate it because it is consistent throughout the Gospels that our Lord was in full rebuke of all formalized religious practices fueled by man's greed. The "priests" of that day had the same iron handed rule over the hearts of the deceived just as the present day roman pagan "priests" do now.

The same goes for any teaching of tithing for Christians. Tithing is wrongful manipulation of people and goes against everything our Lord told us He wants from us as born again believers.

Now please don't go confusing this exposure of wrongful manipulation into meaning we should not give all to Jesus. But Jesus told us clearly who to give to and nowhere did He intimate to give blindly to church "finance committees". We are to give to each other in the church (certainly including the elders who labor in the Word and doctrine-who are to live of the Gospel) and to the lost poor as we witness. Never to give grudgingly and of necessity through manipulation.

I know everyone here has been exposed to this type of "finance committee" or "deacon board" or "treasurer" (you know whomever handles the money). People are manipulated into tithing and then not making bills or living without basic necessities only to find out later that this "tithe-tax": went to pay for a vacation for the church staff. "Because they have been so faithful". Well, guess what: they have their reward.

Is that what it is all about in full time ministry, I am talking IFBs? Really folks, I don't think so.

 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

27 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So then, is it your belief that the Lord our God is contrary to the sacrificial giving of the poor and needy and would never commend such a practice?

2 Corinthians 8:1-5 -- "Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.  For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.  And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God."

 

By the way, I am fully aware that I will NEVER convince you.  However, you are not the only one engaged in the discussion.  Every observer in the audience is also engaged.

Modern Thinking...

 

Jesus is pleased when widows give all their living into the treasuries of men who enrich themselves through thievery.

 

Doesn't sound like the same Jesus that wanted the poor to be provided for to me.

 

interesting concept.

9 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

 

Please point out, in Mark 12 or Luke 21 where the Lord said anything about the motive of the widow's heart.  

 

Given the fact that Proverbs 22 reveals that those who give to the rich will come to want, I highly doubt that Jesus would be pleased by the widow giving all her living to the thieves

[Jim_Alaska]

6 minutes ago, wretched said:

I know everyone here has been exposed to this type of "finance committee" or "deacon board" or "treasurer" (you know whomever handles the money). People are manipulated into tithing and then not making bills or living without basic necessities only to find out later that this "tithe-tax": went to pay for a vacation for the church staff. "Because they have been so faithful". Well, guess what: they have their reward.

Is that what it is all about in full time ministry, I am talking IFBs? Really folks, I don't think so.

 

I don't know how you can "know" this. I have been saved for over forty years and have never been exposed to what you outlined above. Might it just be that there are some churches that do it right?  

I am speaking here to the actual "use" of monies received by churches.