Marriage, Remarriage, Divorce

[Salyan]

Okay, let's calm down a bit and focus on the subject instead of each other, okay? And Mikado? That last comment was completely uncalled for. This is a great thread - let's try to keep it going well.

[prophet1]

Okay, let's calm down a bit and focus on the subject instead of each other, okay? And Mikado? That last comment was completely uncalled for. This is a great thread - let's try to keep it going well.

That comment wasn't so far off, if Mikado thinks that I am endorsing polygamy. I laughed. Anyway, The 12 Tribes are named after kids from 4 mothers, all married to the same dad. Tell Israel, the Son of Isaac, that he's an adulterer. Also, Sodomites can call themselves whatever they want, they aren't one flesh , they are strange flesh. Anishinaabe

[282Mikado]

Okay, let's calm down a bit and focus on the subject instead of each other, okay? And Mikado? That last comment was completely uncalled for. This is a great thread - let's try to keep it going well.

 

Again, I am not heated, I am just very direct. I can see how you could take my last comment as "name-calling" or some such, but I think Prophet1 took it as intended. Just a little sarcastic humor.

 

 

That comment wasn't so far off, if Mikado thinks that I am endorsing polygamy. I laughed. Anyway, The 12 Tribes are named after kids from 4 mothers, all married to the same dad. Tell Israel, the Son of Isaac, that he's an adulterer. Also, Sodomites can call themselves whatever they want, they aren't one flesh , they are strange flesh. Anishinaabe

 

Again, One of God's greatest limitations (I do not say that disrespectfully) is sinful man. Again, the Bible records events as they transpired without removing the sin or sinners. God made a promise to Abraham in Genesis 12 that, in order to be fulfilled, had to go through sinful Abraham, sinful Isaac, and sinful JacOB. Fortunately for us God can still use sinners to make His promises come to pass, but just because he can use sinners does not mean he condones the sin.

 

I have given you numerous verses and complete sections of scripture dedicated to the truth that God created us to be monogamous. You have shown me how God has been able to use the results of sinful relationships to still bring His goals about, and that is a blessing considering we're all sinners, but it still does not prove (or in my mind even hint) that God condones polygamy.

 

Instead of giving me instances of how God is able to use the sins of man to still accomplish His goals (which He does throughout the Bible), could you please give me at least one scripture that directly states that God endorses polygamy?

[prophet1]

Again, I am not heated, I am just very direct. I can see how you could take my last comment as "name-calling" or some such, but I think Prophet1 took it as intended. Just a little sarcastic humor.



Again, One of God's greatest limitations (I do not say that disrespectfully) is sinful man. Again, the Bible records events as they transpired without removing the sin or sinners. God made a promise to Abraham in Genesis 12 that, in order to be fulfilled, had to go through sinful Abraham, sinful Isaac, and sinful JacOB. Fortunately for us God can still use sinners to make His promises come to pass, but just because he can use sinners does not mean he condones the sin.

I have given you numerous verses and complete sections of scripture dedicated to the truth that God created us to be monogamous. You have shown me how God has been able to use the results of sinful relationships to still bring His goals about, and that is a blessing considering we're all sinners, but it still does not prove (or in my mind even hint) that God condones polygamy.

Instead of giving me instances of how God is able to use the sins of man to still accomplish His goals (which He does throughout the Bible), could you please give me at least one scripture that directly states that God endorses polygamy?

Endorsing polygamy isn't the issue.
Calling polygamists adulterers is.

Anishinaabe

[282Mikado]

Endorsing polygamy isn't the issue.
Calling polygamists adulterers is.

Anishinaabe

 

Let’s look at this from another angle. Throughout the Bible marriage is used as a picture of the union between God and his people:

 

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

 

In the New Testament the same figure is used with regards to the love of Christ to his saints:

 

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 

The Church is the Bride of Christ:

 

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

Marriage not only brings a man and a woman together, it is a picture of man’s relationship with God, as well as a picture of everything Christ did for His Bride, the Church, outlined nearly 2000 years before Christ was on earth in the flesh.

 

I showed in post #71 how all references to husbands and wives throughout the Bible were all in the singular. Likewise, God desires our relationship with him to be singular:

 

Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

Exodus 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

 

1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

 

With this in mind, do you think God would mind if we were to marry up to other gods as long as we remained married to Him?

 

In other words, if I go to an IFB church on Sunday and profess salvation through the blood of Christ, do you think God would mind if I went to the Masonic Temple on Monday, to worship Vishnu on Tuesday, bowed and prayed to Mary on Wednesday, sought the "wisdom" of Buddha on Thursday and went to Mosque on Friday? There are many today that believe all roads lead to heaven. What’s the big deal if I’m married to all those roads? After all, the 1^st Commandment merely said Thou shalt have no other gods before me. So as long as I married Christ first (before all the other gods) I should be okay, right?

 

What would God think of such polygamy? Well fortunately He tells us:

 

Jeremiah 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?
5 Will he reserve his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest.
6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not OBeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

 

There are similar references as well (such as Hosea), but in them all, those that seek other gods or the world are called harlots even though God states He is still married to them (see Jer. 3:14 above).

 

Isaiah records what God thinks of such wanderings:

 

Isaiah 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain OBlations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

 

That sounds like God considers this a marriage bed defiled to me.

 

No, scripture does not come right out and say that polygamy is adultery. Scripture doesn’t use the words rapture or trinity either, but the intent is there.

 

If you want to believe that Hebrews 13:4 applies to polygamist's marriage beds, well that’s between you and God, but when I read 1 Corinthians 7 and Ephesians 5 I find it impossible to reconcile the two. How can you not defraud the first wife when you are sleeping with another in the other room? OBviously God doesn't see it that way in His relationship to us.

 

The way I read scripture, the polygamy of JacOB, David and Solomon was sin (polygamy and adultery), but as with Aaron after he made the golden calf, God was still able to use them in spite of their sin. Fortunately for us He still does that today.

[prophet1]

Let’s look at this from another angle. Throughout the Bible marriage is used as a picture of the union between God and his people:

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

In the New Testament the same figure is used with regards to the love of Christ to his saints:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

The Church is the Bride of Christ:

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Marriage not only brings a man and a woman together, it is a picture of man’s relationship with God, as well as a picture of everything Christ did for His Bride, the Church, outlined nearly 2000 years before Christ was on earth in the flesh.

I showed in post #71 how all references to husbands and wives throughout the Bible were all in the singular. Likewise, God desires our relationship with him to be singular:

Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exodus 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

With this in mind, do you think God would mind if we were to marry up to other gods as long as we remained married to Him?

In other words, if I go to an IFB church on Sunday and profess salvation through the blood of Christ, do you think God would mind if I went to the Masonic Temple on Monday, to worship Vishnu on Tuesday, bowed and prayed to Mary on Wednesday, sought the "wisdom" of Buddha on Thursday and went to Mosque on Friday? There are many today that believe all roads lead to heaven. What’s the big deal if I’m married to all those roads? After all, the 1^st Commandment merely said Thou shalt have no other gods before me. So as long as I married Christ first (before all the other gods) I should be okay, right?

What would God think of such polygamy? Well fortunately He tells us:

Jeremiah 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?
5 Will he reserve his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest.
6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not OBeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

There are similar references as well (such as Hosea), but in them all, those that seek other gods or the world are called harlots even though God states He is still married to them (see Jer. 3:14 above).

Isaiah records what God thinks of such wanderings:

Isaiah 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain OBlations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

That sounds like God considers this a marriage bed defiled to me.

No, scripture does not come right out and say that polygamy is adultery. Scripture doesn’t use the words rapture or trinity either, but the intent is there.

If you want to believe that Hebrews 13:4 applies to polygamist's marriage beds, well that’s between you and God, but when I read 1 Corinthians 7 and Ephesians 5 I find it impossible to reconcile the two. How can you not defraud the first wife when you are sleeping with another in the other room? OBviously God doesn't see it that way in His relationship to us.

The way I read scripture, the polygamy of JacOB, David and Solomon was sin (polygamy and adultery), but as with Aaron after he made the golden calf, God was still able to use them in spite of their sin. Fortunately for us He still does that today.

You're almost there.

The people aren't the husband, God is.

The people committed adultery on their husband.

Adultery defiles the marriage bed.

God handed that stupid whore, Israel, a divorcement bill.

God , the Husband, has many of us.
So the picture is still represented properly, no matter how many people get saved.

It is the role of the husband vs. the wife, and how they represent our relationship to God, that is pictured.
For us to search after other gods, would be adultery.
For God to add the Gentiles as His Bride, is not.
His role is to care for us. If He is able to fulfill that role, He is a worthy suitor, though there be many of us.

Get it? That's why we can't call a man who has more than one wife, who he's able to care for, an adulterer. He still represents God and us.

A woman's role is subservient to the man, under his care. For her to ever seek to another source for care, is adultery.
Most working married women are adulterers, after this manner.
Our society has been destroyed by
this more than anything...IMO.

Anishinaabe

[282Mikado]

I agree with all of your last post with one caveat. Marriage with regards to mankind has always been defined by God as between one man and one woman. When a man takes more that one wife his love becomes divided between the two, or three, etc. and they are no longer one flesh. We are to love our wives as we love ourselves. I would be devastated should my wife say she would like to have a second husband for many reasons, but one would be that she must OBviously believe my love is not enough to satisfy her. Discussing this with my wife last night I know she feels the same.

 

To this end we must agree to disagree: because God defined marriage as between one man and one woman, I see polygamy as a sin, and if a man has multiple wives he most likely committed adultery leading up to those additional marriages (Mt 5:28), and he has defiled the marriage bed as God defines it (one man/one woman).

 

If I am in error then it is error on the side of caution with what I believe is proper scriptural underpinnings. I am comfortable with that.

[Salyan]

A woman's role is subservient to the man, under his care. For her to ever seek to another source for care, is adultery.
Most working married women are adulterers, after this manner.
Our society has been destroyed by
this more than anything...IMO.

 

So if a woman goes to a doctor for necessary medical attention (that she pays for), it is adultery? Working a jOB for wages is not the same thing as 'seeking another to care for one'. Scripture allows for adultery in the heart, but that is defined as lust - nothing else (and spiritual adultery, which has to do with our relationship with God and is another thing altogether). Furthermore I must submit that subservience is not synonymous with submission.

[prophet1]

So if a woman goes to a doctor for necessary medical attention (that she pays for), it is adultery? Working a jOB for wages is not the same thing as 'seeking another to care for one'. Scripture allows for adultery in the heart, but that is defined as lust - nothing else (and spiritual adultery, which has to do with our relationship with God and is another thing altogether). Furthermore I must submit that subservience is not synonymous with submission.

I said "most", in the context of marriage, of course.

Most people are going to Hell, does that offend you also?

Anishinaabe

[Salyan]

Anishinaabe, you said, and I quote "For her to ever seek to another source for care, is adultery".

That's a fairly unambiguous statement. I do not see such a statement supported in the Bible. I know there are a lot of people who think women should only work in the family home - and if they can, that's great! However, I am less and less convinced that this is as much of a 'spiritual requirement' as it is often passed off to be. It seems to me to be a burden placed on the shoulders of women that have to work that only makes them feel guilty they cannot stay or work at home - yet God has not placed all women in a position to do so. I realize you are focusing on married women - but some married women need - yes, need - to work outside the home as well. To add to the Scriptures and say they are committing adultery to do so is cruel. As for those who do not need to work but choose to anyways - well, I think they're nuts, and possibly guilty of not keeping their home properly, but they are hardly committing adultery. That interpretation is just not there. Let's not diminish the meaning of the word by applying it too broadly.

[282Mikado]

Anishinaabe, you said, and I quote "For her to ever seek to another source for care, is adultery".

That's a fairly unambiguous statement. I do not see such a statement supported in the Bible. I know there are a lot of people who think women should only work in the family home - and if they can, that's great! However, I am less and less convinced that this is as much of a 'spiritual requirement' as it is often passed off to be. It seems to me to be a burden placed on the shoulders of women that have to work that only makes them feel guilty they cannot stay or work at home - yet God has not placed all women in a position to do so. I realize you are focusing on married women - but some married women need - yes, need - to work outside the home as well. To add to the Scriptures and say they are committing adultery to do so is cruel. As for those who do not need to work but choose to anyways - well, I think they're nuts, and possibly guilty of not keeping their home properly, but they are hardly committing adultery. That interpretation is just not there. Let's not diminish the meaning of the word by applying it too broadly.

 

Not focusing on that point I missed that comment in Prophets post. I believe you are absolutley correct Salyan. This is an unfortunate reality today, but it is a reality. My SIL must work outside the home (teacher to special ed.) because her husband is disabled and very limited in what he can do. It is something that has to be closely monitired to ensure the structure at home or the marriage isn't being hurt, but with the proper focus it can be done. If you think about it though, a man's employment should be closely monitored as well to ensure it does not adversely impact their marriage or home too.

[prophet1]

Anishinaabe, you said, and I quote "For her to ever seek to another source for care, is adultery".
That's a fairly unambiguous statement. I do not see such a statement supported in the Bible. I know there are a lot of people who think women should only work in the family home - and if they can, that's great! However, I am less and less convinced that this is as much of a 'spiritual requirement' as it is often passed off to be. It seems to me to be a burden placed on the shoulders of women that have to work that only makes them feel guilty they cannot stay or work at home - yet God has not placed all women in a position to do so. I realize you are focusing on married women - but some married women need - yes, need - to work outside the home as well. To add to the Scriptures and say they are committing adultery to do so is cruel. As for those who do not need to work but choose to anyways - well, I think they're nuts, and possibly guilty of not keeping their home properly, but they are hardly committing adultery. That interpretation is just not there. Let's not diminish the meaning of the word by applying it too broadly.

When a woman goes to another man, for support, it is adultery, no?

I didn't call "working outside of the home" adultery.
I called seeking support from another man/source adultery.

I shouldn't have to break this down for you, or stop the train of thought to say that Proverbs 31 is still in the Book, and Prascilla had a trade.

"Most" means "most".
Most of this present World's daughters go to work, to seek their own support.
They begin to despise their husband's authority.
Often they become unhappy with their husband, comparing him to the boss, or a successful man who oversees them at the jOB.

Mental, emotional, and even physical adultery is the result.

It is a plague, in the U.S.

It is not caused by working a "jOB" (would to God we all had a trade, not a jOB), but rather by the desire to replace their "unsuccessful" husband, as the source of their care, or the folly of "I'm my own woman", in the first place.



Anishinaabe

[Salyan]

Oh, I get what you're saying. My apologies for taking it the wrong way.

[John81]

I see that prOBlem of wives getting themselves established in a jOB or career for the sake of not feeling like they have to rely upon their husband. Many do this with a mind of figuring if they ever want to leave their husband, they will have the financial security to do so. Some wives purposefully use the security and freedom their husbands provide when they are first married for the express reason of getting the schooling and well paying career established so they will then feel free to divorce their husband.

 

I can't even count the number of women who have married, spent most of their first years of marriage in schooling and career establishment, only to leave their husband once they no longer felt they needed him.

 

Sad to say, but I constantly hear Christian parents telling their daughters to either put off marriage or to make sure even if they do get married they go on and finish their schooling and get a good paying career going "just in case".

[Salyan]

Well, I believe it's a good idea for girls to get training so they can support themselves just in case they don't get married or the husband dies/becomes unable to work. But the idea of planning for divorce is nuts!