Balancing The Christian Life

[Jeffrey]

So do you think it is ok for a Christian to drink a beer or glass of wine once n a while?

Yes, or everyday if he/ she feels like it!

[TheSword]

 

 

 

Well...if it's a Biblical standard then it's God's standard and thus something every Christian should live up to. If a Christian can't be expected to live up to God's standard, then can they rightly be called a disciple or follower of Christ? When someone sets a standard according to Biblical principle, they're really just identifying God's standard. Either their interpretation of God's standard is wrong or every Christian should be abiding by it. I acknowledge that we can't do it perfectly and we all falter from time to time, but our inability to be a perfect image of God does not excuse use from attempting to be.

[Jeffrey]

Habakkuk 2:15 (KJV)
¹⁵  Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! 

ok, next time I get somebody drunk to take advantage of them, I'll remember this verse. thanks

 

 

Proverbs 23:31 (KJV) 

³¹  Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 

your right! drunkeness is a sin, if you read the rest of this passage, its describing somebody in an intoxicated state

 

 

I have a real problem with the belief of some that Jesus gave his neighbors fermented wine at the wedding.  

So you don't believe the Bible?

 

 

Habakkuk 2:15 (KJV)   Fermentation of new wine is synonymous with leaven, and leaven throughout the bible is a picture of sin. 

ok, so don't eat, yogurt, sour cream, sourdough bread, you get the point

 

 

 We are commanded not to even look upon it. 

um, no. Proverbs is a book of wisdom, not of commands. Read that whole section again, it's talking about somebody in an intoxicated state.. stop getting drunk is the idea

 

 

 To have Jesus giving leavened new wine, makes God the purveyor of sin, and encouraging and enabling consumption of something that we are commanded to not even look upon.  I reject any idea that Jesus could have possibly sinned. 

you know God gave us food, we sin when we are gluttons and gorge ourselves.

God gave us sex, we sin when we lust after other women, cheat on our wives, look at porn

 

God gave us alcohol as a gift, men sin with it, men also give thanks to God for it

[GraceSaved]

Well...if it's a Biblical standard then it's God's standard and thus something every Christian should live up to. If a Christian can't be expected to live up to God's standard, then can they rightly be called a disciple or follower of Christ? When someone sets a standard according to Biblical principle, they're really just identifying God's standard. Either their interpretation of God's standard is wrong or every Christian should be abiding by it. I acknowledge that we can't do it perfectly and we all falter from time to time, but our inability to be a perfect image of God does not excuse use from attempting to be.

The Biblical standard is not to get drunk.  To abstain or not abstain is an individual's choice.  For me, I leave it alone, but I'm not going to tell someone who chooses to have a glass of wine with their dinner or have a dose of it in cough medicine that they're going to descend into the gutter.

[DaveW]

Hey folks - I know that alcohol was introduced to this under "standards" but you guys are getting off track. It has been asked at least once that you not take it that way.
Start another thread if you like, although it has been recently done to death.

[GraceSaved]

Hey folks - I know that alcohol was introduced to this under "standards" but you guys are getting off track. It has been asked at least once that you not take it that way.
Start another thread if you like, although it has been recently done to death.

Gracias.  :-)

[Jeffrey]

Yes, not always seen as a sin in all places. Hollywood; Polk Street in San Francisco. Skid Row. No brothels hold it to be wrong. None of the military cultures, especially overseas, hold it to be wrong. Drunks don't see a problem with it.  The lost love it.

 

What comes from this blessing?  10,228 Highway deaths related to alcohol in 2010, 211 being children 14 and under. Broken homes, rampant alcoholism, child and spousal abuse and molestation. It causes damage to the brain and vital organs, even in small amounts. Cancer, heart disease, liver disease. Homelessness, loss of jobs. And according to the Bible, some of the effects are perverted judgment, (why kings, princes and priests were disallowed from it-are we not priests under the Lord?), redness of eyes, wounds without cause, illness, etc.

 

There would be not one drunk if they had not had just one drink to start. No one would ever die in an alochol-related accident if someone had not taken just one drink. I can personally testify to the ability of alcohol to impair one's judgment, but I will not give more, for this is under the blood. But it did much damage in my life. There is a reason it is referred to as 'spirits'.

 

Yeah, sounds like a good activity for believers in Christ who are supposed to be separate from sin and all appearances of evil.

 

Yes, not always seen as a sin in all places. Hollywood; Polk Street in San Francisco. Skid Row. No brothels hold it to be wrong. None of the military cultures, especially overseas, hold it to be wrong. Drunks don't see a problem with it.  The lost love it.

apparently, so did Jesus Luke 7:34

 

 

What comes from this blessing?  10,228 Highway deaths related to alcohol in 2010, 211 being children 14 and under. Broken homes, rampant alcoholism, child and spousal abuse and molestation. It causes damage to the brain and vital organs, even in small amounts. Cancer, heart disease, liver disease. Homelessness, loss of jobs. And according to the Bible, some of the effects are perverted judgment, (why kings, princes and priests were disallowed from it-are we not priests under the Lord?), redness of eyes, wounds without cause, illness, etc.

you have the numbers for diabetes? heart disease? overeating/gluttony are the main culprit in these

 

 

 (why kings, princes and priests were disallowed from it-are we not priests under the Lord?), 

yet, believers are allowed to enjoy Gods gift( Duet 14:26)

 

 

Yeah, sounds like a good activity for believers in Christ who are supposed to be separate from sin and all appearances of evil.

Stay away from false teachers??? what does this have to do with alcohol??

Actually Mike, it is an activity that God did bless His people with. remember, i always say this, temperance(self control) is a fruit of the spirit

Mike, the remedy for drunkenness, gluttony, lust is what?? Christ and the Gospel!!! this Finney style of moral-ism is what has led many IFB churches astray, trying to govern peoples behavior rather than show them Christ and letting the Holy Spirit do His job in changing peoples lives. By being so moralistic in the way Finney would love, you become the control freak Democrats you guys so despise.

[Jeffrey]

Ok, im getting off my soap box now, sorry GS

[2bLikeJesus]

If a lost person who knows I profess to be a devout christian (it's amazing that some have a higher standard of how we should live than we do) sees me leaving the grocery store with a 6 pack or bottle of wine, what does he think? Is he shocked?  Thinks I am a hypocrite?  Does it speak well of my Savior? 

 

If he sees me sitting in the restaurant with a mixed drink on my table, what does he think?  Is he shocked?  Thinks I am a hypocrite?  Does it speak well of my Savior?

 

1 Thessalonians 5:22 (KJV)
²²  Abstain from all appearance of evil.

 

1 Corinthians 8:13 (KJV) 

¹³  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. 

 

Is there anything at all wrong with meat and eating meat?  Absolutely not!  But if you know the story, that meat was offered to a stone idol.  The mature christian knew it was nothing but a rock and would enjoy the perfectly good meat, but the new christian not knowing better would be shocked that a mature christian was offering worship to the idol he just got saved from, because that is how he worshiped him.

 

If a lost person, or another brother, were look upon my beverage (good or bad) and it would cause him to stumble because it appeared I was doing evil, then I would stay away from it for that reason alone. Based on this principle to "abstain from all appearance of evil" I have a conviction to be mindful of how others view what I am doing, and therefore I set standards that help me keep my conviction. For me, it means I wont even buy "sparkling cider" from the store because it is packaged to look exactly like a champagne bottle.  Is there anything at all wrong with the cider?  NO!  But it violates the appearance of evil for way to many lost people and brothers who know me.  

 

      Matthew 5:16 (KJV) 

¹⁶  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

It matters to God how you appear, not just how you obey Him.        

[GraceSaved]

I wanna lighten things up.  I Love Lucy Vitameatavegamin skit.  LOL!  "Are you unpoopular?  Do you pop out at parties?  Well all your answers are in the biddle lottle...I mean little bottle.  And it's tasty too!"

[Jeffrey]

If a lost person who knows I profess to be a devout christian (it's amazing that some have a higher standard of how we should live than we do) sees me leaving the grocery store with a 6 pack or bottle of wine, what does he think? Is he shocked?  Thinks I am a hypocrite?  Does it speak well of my Savior? 

Yes because Jesus was so worried about our standards

[Jeffrey]

If a lost person who knows I profess to be a devout christian (it's amazing that some have a higher standard of how we should live than we do) sees me leaving the grocery store with a 6 pack or bottle of wine, what does he think? Is he shocked?  Thinks I am a hypocrite?  Does it speak well of my Savior? 

 

If he sees me sitting in the restaurant with a mixed drink on my table, what does he think?  Is he shocked?  Thinks I am a hypocrite?  Does it speak well of my Savior?

It shows that God bless's His people with alcohol, more unsaved people believe the Jesus of the Bible that He made wine at a wedding than believers, thats a shame

 

 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:22 (KJV) 

²²  Abstain from all appearance of evil.      

What does false teachers have to do with this???

 

 

 

 

Is there anything at all wrong with meat and eating meat?  Absolutely not!  But if you know the story, that meat was offered to a stone idol.  The mature christian knew it was nothing but a rock and would enjoy the perfectly good meat, but the new christian not knowing better would be shocked that a mature christian was offering worship to the idol he just got saved from, because that is how he worshiped him.     

Then a Romans 14 situation comes into play here

 

 

If a lost person, or another brother, were look upon my beverage (good or bad) and it would cause him to stumble because it appeared I was doing evil, then I would stay away from it for that reason alone. Based on this principle to "abstain from all appearance of evil" I have a conviction to be mindful of how others view what I am doing, and therefore I set standards that help me keep my conviction. For me, it means I wont even buy "sparkling cider" from the store because it is packaged to look exactly like a champagne bottle.  Is there anything at all wrong with the cider?  NO!  But it violates the appearance of evil for way to many lost people and brothers who know me.     

I was looking up the word for appearance and give the definition of a term used by old greek word(εἶδος( for false coinage or mint  basically talking about false teachers or doctrine

[Jeffrey]

It matters to God how you appear, not just how you obey Him.        

[DaveW]

If you meet with a friend and you know that your friend has a standard different to yours, you should abide by his standard for that time.
That doesn't mean you change your standard - you just love him enough not to offend.
I used the example of wearing shorts earlier.
My friend has a conviction that wearing shorts is wrong - if I am meeting with him I will wear jeans or other long pants as appropriate.
If he was to knock on the door right now, he would find me in shorts, and hopefully he would love me enough to accept my standards on shorts.
That doesn't mean that I throw a pair of shorts at him and say "My house, my rules", but hopefully he would accept my shorts wearing at that time.
Next time I knew we were going to meet, I would make sure I was wearing long pants, as usual.

I have my standards, he has his standards.
They are not the same, but we honour each other's convictions and allow each other to hold our standards.
See 1 Cor 10.

Now, if he walks in, sees my shorts, proclaims me to be a wicked backslider and demands I immediately cover my legs or he will never associate with me again..... I would suggest that he is straying somewhat into legalism.

[GraceSaved]

If a lost person who knows I profess to be a devout christian (it's amazing that some have a higher standard of how we should live than we do) sees me leaving the grocery store with a 6 pack or bottle of wine, what does he think? Is he shocked?  Thinks I am a hypocrite?  Does it speak well of my Savior? 

 

If he sees me sitting in the restaurant with a mixed drink on my table, what does he think?  Is he shocked?  Thinks I am a hypocrite?  Does it speak well of my Savior?

 

1 Thessalonians 5:22 (KJV)
²²  Abstain from all appearance of evil.

 

1 Corinthians 8:13 (KJV) 

¹³  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. 

 

Is there anything at all wrong with meat and eating meat?  Absolutely not!  But if you know the story, that meat was offered to a stone idol.  The mature christian knew it was nothing but a rock and would enjoy the perfectly good meat, but the new christian not knowing better would be shocked that a mature christian was offering worship to the idol he just got saved from, because that is how he worshiped him.

 

If a lost person, or another brother, were look upon my beverage (good or bad) and it would cause him to stumble because it appeared I was doing evil, then I would stay away from it for that reason alone. Based on this principle to "abstain from all appearance of evil" I have a conviction to be mindful of how others view what I am doing, and therefore I set standards that help me keep my conviction. For me, it means I wont even buy "sparkling cider" from the store because it is packaged to look exactly like a champagne bottle.  Is there anything at all wrong with the cider?  NO!  But it violates the appearance of evil for way to many lost people and brothers who know me.  

 

      Matthew 5:16 (KJV) 

¹⁶  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

It matters to God how you appear, not just how you obey Him.        

"Abstain from all appearance of evil."  This is one of those verses used to judge the actions of others and is a form of legalism.  All it does is lead to a sense of insecurity and fear on the part of Christians who constantly worry about whether their actions could be perceived by others as evil or sinful.  It accuses brothers and sisters in Christ who have done nothing wrong except in someone else's eyes.  This creates gossip and discord.

 

Jesus himself would not have passed the test of the appearance of evil.  He spent time with tax collectors and prostitutes.  He was accused of guilt by association.  He didn't take pains to avoid the appearance of impropriety, but yet he avoided every kind of evil.

 

Let everyone follow their conscience and be convinced in their own minds.  We can't build a fence around ourselves.  Everyone has a different opinion of what is sinful and evil in their own eyes.