Ray Comfort Ministries/evidence Bible?

[John81]

Below is an article on what "Lordship Salvation" is:  IT is clearly evident that "works" are added to salvation.  It doesn't mention any names, as to who teaches LS, either.  I think it is safe.   

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Lordship%20Salvation/proof.htm

There are so many!

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/BookReviews/gospel.htm

[candlelight]

There are so many!

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/BookReviews/gospel.htm

 

Yes, there are many sites that explain what "Lordship Salvation" is, John.  Actually, it is Armenian in doctrine.  Part of the article said, "The subject of lordship salvation is not easily delineated. Its basic premise, that Jesus cannot be one's Savior without also being his Lord, has been taken by some to mean that salvation is attained by works rather than by God's grace."  This website seems that MacArthur is talking out of both sides of his mouth.  I have seen him in recent videos, promoting LS.  Let me see if I can find a short video.

[candlelight]

Below is a 10 minute video, showing John MacArthur preaching "Lordship Salvation" and a pastor preaching what the Bible says.  This video was posted 4 months ago.

http://search.mywebsearch.com/mywebsearch/video.jhtml?searchfor=you+tube+videos+of+John+Macarthur+and+Lordship+salvation&cb=YK&pg=GGmain&p2=%5EYK%5Exdm311%5EYY%5Eus&n=77fce44e&qid=6f7a2f3af9ed4645bcb8af2a30bdfe21&ss=sub&pn=1&st=bar&ptb=413AB369-50AE-483B-BAE0-4E1D18E0F640&tpr=&si=1091&vid=TGwXIoMnNgg

 

[John81]

Yes, there are many sites that explain what "Lordship Salvation" is, John.  Actually, it is Armenian in doctrine.  Part of the article said, "The subject of lordship salvation is not easily delineated. Its basic premise, that Jesus cannot be one's Savior without also being his Lord, has been taken by some to mean that salvation is attained by works rather than by God's grace."  This website seems that MacArthur is talking out of both sides of his mouth.  I have seen him in recent videos, promoting LS.  Let me see if I can find a short video.

This is an issue I don't really encounter outside the internet. I know there are two different groups who claim to believe in "Lordship Salvation", the one group says one must clean up their life before they can be saved, the other says that if one is saved their lives will evidence it by their obedience to Christ.

 

On the very rare occasions I encounter this in the real world, I typically move away from the term "Lordship salvation" and discuss the matter without using that term at all.

[candlelight]

This is an issue I don't really encounter outside the internet. I know there are two different groups who claim to believe in "Lordship Salvation", the one group says one must clean up their life before they can be saved, the other says that if one is saved their lives will evidence it by their obedience to Christ.

 

On the very rare occasions I encounter this in the real world, I typically move away from the term "Lordship salvation" and discuss the matter without using that term at all.

I am surprised you don't encounter it, John.  I have talked with many Christians, in my area, that believe this very doctrine.  How does one go about "cleaning up their life before they can get saved?"  I had this problem when I worked at a homeless shelter in my area.  Preachers would come in and tell the girls that they must be sin free in order to trust Christ as Personal Saviour.  As stated in the video, the pastor mentions the 613 laws of the OT that the Jews are "supposedly" keeping for salvation.  I have never met one Jew, and I have met plenty, who hold to the 613 laws.  It is impossible to do that.  I agree with you about the term.  It was only coined to show people how they can't add works to salvation.  If that were true, why did Jesus die on the Cross of Calvary for remission of sins?  As I stated, LS is Armenian and it is also Calvinistic in doctine, as well.  However, it goes much deeper than that.  Below is the Hebrew OT, definition of "repentence."

No one is denying that repentance is spoken of in Scripture. But the word "repentance" in our modern culture has deviated hugely from the Biblical meaning. In the Old Testament, the word "repentance" is from the Hebrew. Borrowing from a study on the word, by Bill Fallon, here is some basic information:


There are two Hebrew words that are translated “repent” or its cognates. These are “shuwb” bwv, and “nacham” Mxn. In the King James Version “repent,” “repented,” etc. are found 46 times in the Old Testament in 45 verses. The Hebrew word “shuwb” is often translated as “turn” or “return.” A very important point that is often neglected in this discussion is that the word “shuwb” is only translated as “repent” two times out of over one thousand times that it is used. The other forty-four times that “repent” is found, it is translated from the other Hebrew word used; “nacham,” which has a different meaning. This observation alone should cast some doubt on the unbiblical assumption that we must turn from sin or repent of sin in order to be saved.


Out of the 46 times that repent is used in the OT, 37 times, or about 80% of the time it is speaking of God repenting or not repenting. Only about one-fifth of the time does it refer to man repenting. Of the six times that it refers to man repenting, none of the occurrences are in the context of acquiring eternal life. The fact that in most cases that it is God Himself repenting, should indicate to us that the OT word does not mean to “turn from sin” or “be sorry for sin.

 

[Galations 2:20]

Repent:  

 

See your life as Christ views it (as a sinner without hope) and have faith (even as small as a mustard seed) in His free gift of salvation (for whosoever).  

 

A person's salvation allows Him to change your heart evermore into a likeness of Him (holiness) as you walk withHim (obedience) along the narrow path towards eternity.

[swathdiver]

Many of John MacArthur's doctrines are not biblical and therefore he should be rubuked and we are to stay away from him and warn others of his errors.  He rails against the rock-n-roll culture from his podium in front of the drums and electric guitars.

[John81]

I am surprised you don't encounter it, John.  I have talked with many Christians, in my area, that believe this very doctrine.  How does one go about "cleaning up their life before they can get saved?"  I had this problem when I worked at a homeless shelter in my area.  Preachers would come in and tell the girls that they must be sin free in order to trust Christ as Personal Saviour.  As stated in the video, the pastor mentions the 613 laws of the OT that the Jews are "supposedly" keeping for salvation.  I have never met one Jew, and I have met plenty, who hold to the 613 laws.  It is impossible to do that.  I agree with you about the term.  It was only coined to show people how they can't add works to salvation.  If that were true, why did Jesus die on the Cross of Calvary for remission of sins?  As I stated, LS is Armenian and it is also Calvinistic in doctine, as well.  However, it goes much deeper than that.  Below is the Hebrew OT, definition of "repentence."

No one is denying that repentance is spoken of in Scripture. But the word "repentance" in our modern culture has deviated hugely from the Biblical meaning. In the Old Testament, the word "repentance" is from the Hebrew. Borrowing from a study on the word, by Bill Fallon, here is some basic information:


There are two Hebrew words that are translated “repent” or its cognates. These are “shuwb” bwv, and “nacham” Mxn. In the King James Version “repent,” “repented,” etc. are found 46 times in the Old Testament in 45 verses. The Hebrew word “shuwb” is often translated as “turn” or “return.” A very important point that is often neglected in this discussion is that the word “shuwb” is only translated as “repent” two times out of over one thousand times that it is used. The other forty-four times that “repent” is found, it is translated from the other Hebrew word used; “nacham,” which has a different meaning. This observation alone should cast some doubt on the unbiblical assumption that we must turn from sin or repent of sin in order to be saved.


Out of the 46 times that repent is used in the OT, 37 times, or about 80% of the time it is speaking of God repenting or not repenting. Only about one-fifth of the time does it refer to man repenting. Of the six times that it refers to man repenting, none of the occurrences are in the context of acquiring eternal life. The fact that in most cases that it is God Himself repenting, should indicate to us that the OT word does not mean to “turn from sin” or “be sorry for sin.

 

There is no way one can clean up their own lives. If such were possible, we wouldn't need the blood of Christ.

 

The very few I've encountered who believe in Lordship salvation hold to a biblical position that if one is born again they are new creatures in Christ and their lives will show fruit of salvation. That's their meaning of Lordship salvation. The other variety I've only had contact with online.

 

In the same way, I don't encounter "hyper-Calvinists" out here, but there are certainly some online.

 

I also don't encounter many who call themselves Armenians, even most of those who fit into that category based on their acceptance of their churches teaching which is Armenian, yet they are unfamiliar with the term.

 

As much as possible I try to set aside various labels and go into Scripture with folks, work our way through the Word on a matter and discuss what we have found.

[candlelight]

There is no way one can clean up their own lives. If such were possible, we wouldn't need the blood of Christ.

 

The very few I've encountered who believe in Lordship salvation hold to a biblical position that if one is born again they are new creatures in Christ and their lives will show fruit of salvation. That's their meaning of Lordship salvation. The other variety I've only had contact with online.

 

In the same way, I don't encounter "hyper-Calvinists" out here, but there are certainly some online.

 

I also don't encounter many who call themselves Armenians, even most of those who fit into that category based on their acceptance of their churches teaching which is Armenian, yet they are unfamiliar with the term.

 

As much as possible I try to set aside various labels and go into Scripture with folks, work our way through the Word on a matter and discuss what we have found.



 

 

Exactly, John.  However, many pastors teach this.  This false doctrine is very common where I live.  I do understand that some people have another meaning for what Lordship Salvation is.  I don't talk labels with people, outside of the Internet, either.  It is just best to present what the word says, and leave it at that.  I've had to "shake the dust off" with some people who are unwilling to understand things such as Eternal Security, though.  Even after giving them numerous scriptures, they still want to believe a person is saved by faith + works.  Saldy, these people are the ones witnessing to the lost.     

[John81]

Exactly, John.  However, many pastors teach this.  This false doctrine is very common where I live.  I do understand that some people have another meaning for what Lordship Salvation is.  I don't talk labels with people, outside of the Internet, either.  It is just best to present what the word says, and leave it at that.  I've had to "shake the dust off" with some people who are unwilling to understand things such as Eternal Security, though.  Even after giving them numerous scriptures, they still want to believe a person is saved by faith + works.  Saldy, these people are the ones witnessing to the lost.     

That's true, pastors around here are all over the place with what they teach, with a handful teaching the Word, while the rest teach some of the Word (some less than others) along with false traditions of men, church teaching, personal pet peeves, politics, social justice, and on and on.

 

We have a fine older lady in our church who grew up and spent most of her life in a church that taught one can lose their salvation, that one can't ever be 100% sure they will go to heaven. She attended our church for a couple of years, really struggling with the false teaching she grew up with, and believed for decades, and our pastors teaching from Scripture that "once saved, always saved". Even today she still sometimes catches herself thinking about the false teaching she grew up with and will raise a point in Sunday school, needing once again to hear our pastor explain the falsehood of losing ones salvation and the biblical teaching of eternal security.

 

I've encountered those who claim we are in the sin of pride when we say we are saved for sure, saved forever and certain we will be with Christ in heaven. They are so awash in the belief they must keep their salvation by their own good works, and so fearful of missing the mark, they won't or can't accept the possibility the Bible teaches eternal security.

 

I heard a version of that teaching when I attended Methodist Sunday school as a child, though I didn't know that's what it was at the time. They also didn't teach the biblical Gospel of salvation, but rather a works based salvation. What I got out of Methodist Sunday school was that I had to be "good enough" to keep God from punishing me in this life and to get into heaven, otherwise if I wasn't "good enough", the devil would get me and I'd find myself in hell.

 

That was a teaching that haunted me, literally, until I finally heard the biblical truth right after my 18th birthday. I was constantly fearful that God might hurt me because I knew I wasn't perfect, I was afraid the devil was going to come and get me, I was afraid I'd end up in hell with all those evil people. After all, what does "good enough" mean and how could I know if I was good enough, especially since I knew I wasn't always "good"?

 

I really feel for those who live their lives in fear, constantly trying to hit a mark they can't see, and having no peace in Christ.

[candlelight]

That's true, pastors around here are all over the place with what they teach, with a handful teaching the Word, while the rest teach some of the Word (some less than others) along with false traditions of men, church teaching, personal pet peeves, politics, social justice, and on and on.

 

We have a fine older lady in our church who grew up and spent most of her life in a church that taught one can lose their salvation, that one can't ever be 100% sure they will go to heaven. She attended our church for a couple of years, really struggling with the false teaching she grew up with, and believed for decades, and our pastors teaching from Scripture that "once saved, always saved". Even today she still sometimes catches herself thinking about the false teaching she grew up with and will raise a point in Sunday school, needing once again to hear our pastor explain the falsehood of losing ones salvation and the biblical teaching of eternal security.

 

I've encountered those who claim we are in the sin of pride when we say we are saved for sure, saved forever and certain we will be with Christ in heaven. They are so awash in the belief they must keep their salvation by their own good works, and so fearful of missing the mark, they won't or can't accept the possibility the Bible teaches eternal security.

 

I heard a version of that teaching when I attended Methodist Sunday school as a child, though I didn't know that's what it was at the time. They also didn't teach the biblical Gospel of salvation, but rather a works based salvation. What I got out of Methodist Sunday school was that I had to be "good enough" to keep God from punishing me in this life and to get into heaven, otherwise if I wasn't "good enough", the devil would get me and I'd find myself in hell.

 

That was a teaching that haunted me, literally, until I finally heard the biblical truth right after my 18th birthday. I was constantly fearful that God might hurt me because I knew I wasn't perfect, I was afraid the devil was going to come and get me, I was afraid I'd end up in hell with all those evil people. After all, what does "good enough" mean and how could I know if I was good enough, especially since I knew I wasn't always "good"?

 

I really feel for those who live their lives in fear, constantly trying to hit a mark they can't see, and having no peace in Christ.

 

Yet, faith + works is taught is so many churches.  I find myself  when going round and round with people who believe such a doctrine.  When you explain that once you are saved, you cannot loose your salvation, as the scriptures say, these people look at you like you are a heretic.  Also, the false doctrine of Hebrew Roots is floating around on the Internet.  Many people are falling for this, as well.  Coupled with the false doctrine, that they already believe, it makes for a remedy for disaster.  I would think that a person would be very happy to believe they can't and won't loose their salvation once they are saved.  Yet, they continue to believe the dogma spewed out by false preachers.

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba Father." ~ Romans 8:15

 

Many people do not know how to rightly divide the word of truth.

"Study to shew (show) thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ~ II Timothy 2:15