Chrislam? Christian Palestinianism?

[LindaR]

????!!!! Keep slapping!! Jerry, I think she's trying to bait you! Or she posted in wrong forum?

I certainly hope you are joking.  

 

Trying to bait Jerry? 

 

Since Chrislam and the closely associated teaching of Christian Palestinianism are false doctrines, I didn't post this in the wrong forum.

 

BTW, I still don't understand Jerry's posts, but I'm going to drop trying to figure it out.

 

Did you read the entire article from the Berean Call and the one from Paw Creek Ministries concerning this "Yale Covenant"?  After you have read both of those articles, then watch the 1 hour video of Paul Wilkinson's explanation of Christian Palestinianism.

[John81]

A book that really gets to the heart of the matter is, "The Palestinian Right to Israel" by Alex Grobman.

[Covenanter]

My comments are my own - unless I indicate quotes & links.

 

Stephen Sizer carefully considers the Scriptural arguments, summarising both sides. I'm re-reading his book.

 

Who comprises new covenant Israel ?

 

Where in the NT do Jesus & his Apostles prophesy a land fulfilment of the OT prophecies? 

[Covenanter]

I do not support ecumenism, liberalism, Chrislam, etc. I believe in salvation only through repentance & faith in Christ, with that salvation being evidenced by a godly walk in the Spirit. Therefore I will not associate with those who reject the fundamentals of the Christian faith. That said, I do not reject everything they say, any more than I reject Trinitarian doctrine because the RCs teach it. Nor do I reject the contributions of my bretheren on this forum because of specific disagreement.

 

OP linked article:

Here are quotes from three anti -Christian Zionism sources that characterize the movement:

 

It is…a total misunderstanding of the story of salvation and a perversion of God’s plan for a Christian to want to re-establish a Jewish nation as a political entity….The Christian conscience should always discern what is the authentic vocation of the Jewish people and what is the other side of the coin, that is, the racist State of Israel. (The Institute for Palestine Studies, 1970)

 

We categorically reject Christian Zionist doctrines as a false teaching that corrupts the biblical message of love, justice and reconciliation….With urgency we warn that Christian Zionism and its alliances are justifying colonization, apartheid and empire-building. (“The Jewish Declaration on Christian Zionism,” 2006)

 

The Christian Zionist worldview has cataclysmic consequences for a religiously integrated and lasting peace in Palestine/Israel.” (General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, 2007)

 

I agree with the first two statements; there is nothing in the NT teachings that support an earthly state of Israel. Supporting a Jewish state is inimical to the Gospel in the region.

 

While I am in favour of a lasting peace in the region, & a peaceful homeland for the Jews who have suffered centuries of persecution, that cannot be achieved by "religious integration" but only by the Gospel. Nevertheless, full peaceful coexistence by mutual acceptance of differing religions is highly desirable. That must include freedom to convert to Christ without persecution. While the third statement is true, it is seriously flawed.

 

I am not familiar with Wilkinson, but the charge against him needs an answer:

 

 The most shocking aspect of what Wilkinson writes is not just the fact that these modern-day “prophets” are teaching “that God has rejected Israel and replaced her with the Church” or that they are attempting to marshal forces through the church against Israel politically, economically, and theologically; it is that many are highly esteemed Christian leaders who profess to be evangelicals, i.e., Bible-believing Christians!

 

The charge of "replacement theology" is false, an invention of those who reject the concept of the perfect fulfilment of the covenants by Jesus through his atoning work. 

Sizer (p. 55) writes:

"The NT does not teach the Gentiles have superceded the Jews. But neither does it teach that the Jewish people retain a position of superiority over the Gentiels or over the church. There is continuity between the believers of the old covenant who looked forward to the coming of Christ, & the believers under the new covenant who look forward to his return. When Jesus died, he broke down th ewall of separation between Jew & Gentile. (Eph. 2:14-16)

 

"We" have no political force, unlike the Zionists who have the force & influence of the dispensationalists & Jewish lobbies, & who support the massive financial, military & political given by America to national Israel, and who have a strong theological lobby as seen by the OP article.

 

"We" are evangelical Bible believing Christians, though obviously I cannot speak for everyone cited. Teaching that the national Israel is not a fulfilment of Bible prophecy does not mean we do not believe the Bible. It means particularly that we look to the NT & the teachings of Jesus & his Apostles. The NT does not teach a restoration of Israel as a nation.

 

I am not familiar with the other people cited, only Stephen Sizer - I'm re-reading his book "Zion's Christian Soldiers." I'll answer the charges against him. (At present without consultation - though I have some questions for him.)

 

 

Not every one of the Christian leaders who supports Christian Palestinianism would hold to all the beliefs mentioned above, but they all promote it in general and in opposition to what the Bible declares prophetically. The unofficial ringleader in this movement is an Anglican priest named Stephen Sizer, whose church is a member of the Evangelical Alliance and the Willow Creek Association of Churches (Lynne Hybels, the wife of Willow Creek Community Church’s pastor, is a supporter of Sizer. She rejects the modern state of Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy). Sizer’s first book, Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon? , received numerous endorsements from evangelical leaders. Wilkinson notes that reviewers praised it as the “most important and most comprehensive on the subject to date,” and the “scholarly treatment to counteract the rabid prophecy pack” (italics added), condemning Christian Zionism as “pernicious,” a “totally unbiblical menace,” “a powerful force that encourages the destruction of millions of people,” and “one of the most dangerous and heretical movements in the world which fuels the Arab-Israeli conflict” ( Prophets, p. 10).

 

Sizer summarizes his beliefs presented in Christian Zionism : “There has only ever been one people of God through history—‘the Church’; All biblical covenants are subsumed under one covenant of grace; The Jewish people, as an ethnic nation, have fulfilled their role in history, which was to prepare the way for the Church/Christianity; The Church is the new Israel, enlarged through Christ to embrace all peoples.” Sizer’s second book, Zion’s Christian Soldiers?, contains a sermon by evangelical scholar John Stott, who characterizes Christian Zionism as “biblically anathema to the Christian faith.”

 

Although Sizer’s books are just a few among the proliferating titles that are in opposition to Israel, Zionism, and Christian Zionism, they are a signpost revealing the beliefs of those highly influential evangelicals who have endorsed his position and his writings.

Sizer's books are certainly scholarly. We do not want to fuels the Arab-Israeli conflict. We do have a Gospel of peace. I glad that the concensus on this forum is against the proposed US attack on Syria, but how many of you want a US/Israeli attack on Iran? And how many of you are concerned about the Israeli nuclear arsenal?

1 Tim. 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

 

The people of God only ever comprise true believers - children of God by faith. (John 1, Heb. 11) There is a clear distinction in the OT between flesh & heart circumcision.

John 1:¹¹ He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

¹² But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

¹³ Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

Deut. 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

How many vines are there? And how many olive trees? Do the gentiles grafted in, & the Jews regrafted, comprise 2 separate olive trees? Surely all Israel will comprise one olive true, with Jew & Gentile branches. (Rom. 11)

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I'll just stick with what the Word of God says instead of Preterism's twisted interpretation of it.

[Covenanter]

I'll just stick with what the Word of God says instead of Preterism's twisted interpretation of it.

 

The Word of God - Jesus - has nothing to say about restoring national Israel. If you disagree, please show me in the NT.

[LindaR]

Jesus spoke of the restoration of Israel's earthly kingdom where He will rule from David's throne in Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

 

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (Messianic restoration) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

The New covenant with Israel promises that God will restore them to their promised land and give them a new heart to obey Him. This will happen when Jesus returns from Heaven (Romans 11:25-27; Hebrews 8:7-13).

 

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

God promised David that his seed would rule over this kingdom (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Psalms 89:20-29).

 

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2 Samuel 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
2 Samuel 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

 

Psalms 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
Psalms 89:21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
Psalms 89:22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
Psalms 89:23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
Psalms 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
Psalms 89:25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
Psalms 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Psalms 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Psalms 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

 

Jesus Christ is the Seed of David who has inherited these promises (Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 1:1).

 

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

 

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

 

Nevertheless, full peaceful coexistence by mutual acceptance of differing religions is highly desirable.

There will be no true peace until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  He is our peace.  "Full peaceful coexistence by mutual acceptance of differing religions" is simply a manmade "tolerance" and borders on ecumenism.

 

 

The charge of "replacement theology" is false, an invention of those who reject the concept of the perfect fulfilment of the covenants by Jesus through his atoning work.

Do you believe that God is finished with Israel and all the promises and covenants which God gave to Israel, have been "transferred" to the church?

[Covenanter]

Ian:

The Word of God - Jesus - has nothing to say about restoring national Israel. If you disagree, please show me in the NT.

Thank you, Linda, for presenting Scripture in answer to my question. We need to examine these Scriptures in context to see if they do teach the restoration of national Israel.

 

Jesus spoke of the restoration of Israel's earthly kingdom where He will rule from David's throne in Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

 

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

Jesus has in the immediately previous verses denounced the Jerusalem leaders:

³³ Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

³⁴ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

³⁵ That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

³⁶ Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

  He then addresses the Jerusalem leaders with longing that Jerusalem's children would be gathered to him, despite Jerusalem's rejection of him. Remember that in Mat. 21 the people & the children had welcomed him with those words. So, is Jesus making an "end times, millennial prophecy" or warning them that they MUST acknowledge his Lordship - as thousands of the Jerusalem citizens & visitors did after Pentecost?

 

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

This is teaching that he will come & judge the nations (presumably including the Jews, as he is speaking to Jews.) That judgement is final - eternal, no suggestion of a millennial Jewish kingdom.

³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

.... ⁴⁶ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

 

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (Messianic restoration) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

Jesus does not give further details, no suggestion of a millennial kingdom, but he states that the Apostles will share his judgement of those who have rejected or accepted the Gospel they have preached. 

 

The New covenant with Israel promises that God will restore them to their promised land and give them a new heart to obey Him. This will happen when Jesus returns from Heaven (Romans 11:25-27; Hebrews 8:7-13).

 

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

Romans 11 comes in the middle of a large epistle in which Paul develops systematic theology, particlarly of universal inexcusable sinfulness; salvation by faith & an Abrahamic relationship to God, by faith, of all believers, regardless of ethnicity who are declared to be Jews inwardly. (Rom. 2) The question is why the ethnic Israel appear not to be counted in now Messiah has come in fulfilment of all God's promises & prophecies? They are dismissed as not Jews. (Rom. 2)

 

Further, in Rom. 15, Paul makes it clear that believing Gentiles are numbered with his people. So what is Paul saying in Rom. 11? He has used the analogy of the olive tree, with the Gentiles being grafted in, & believing Jews being regrafted. The implication is that the completed olive tree represents "all Israel" including believing Jews & Gentiles comprising one tree, one redeemed, believing people. There is nothing about restoring them to the promised land in Romans. 

 

Paul does say what will happen once the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. He simply concludes, And so all Israel shall be saved.  The prophecies he quotes look forward to Jesus taking away their sins, & fulfilling the covenant - Jesus has come, he has died for their sins, & inaugurated the new covenant. He is not prophesying a new new covenant, nor a new deliverer, nor a new saving work.

 

 

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

Is there to be a further new covenant, just with ethnic Israel & Judah? (v. 8) & is Judah excluded from that new covenant in v. 10? Are all believers saved by that new covenant, or just a yet future generation of Israelites? Jesus inaugurated the new covenant at the last supper. Hebrews is claiming & explaining prophecy, not writing new prophecy of a new covenant yet to come, & exclusive to  Israel. On what basis can Israel claim a covenant relationship with God? Their old covenant has vanished away.  Indeed, Hebrews declares: ¹⁰ We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.   

 

God promised David that his seed would rule over this kingdom (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Psalms 89:20-29).

 

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2 Samuel 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
2 Samuel 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

 

Psalms 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
Psalms 89:21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
Psalms 89:22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
Psalms 89:23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
Psalms 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
Psalms 89:25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
Psalms 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Psalms 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Psalms 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

 

Jesus Christ is the Seed of David who has inherited these promises (Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 1:1).

 

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

 

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

 

I am not going to argue with you about these Scriptures, Jesus is the promised seed/son of David, & ascended to his throne on completion of his saving work. As Peter & Paul declare:

Acts 2:³⁰ Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

³¹ He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

³² This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

³³ Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

Acts 13:³² And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

³³ God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

³⁴ And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

³⁵ Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

³⁶ For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

³⁷ But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

 

Should we look for some future fulfilment of the Davidic prophecies, & discount the Apostolic declarations? Surely not!

 

 

There will be no true peace until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  He is our peace. I agree 100%  "Full peaceful coexistence by mutual acceptance of differing religions" is simply a manmade "tolerance" and borders on ecumenism. I'd rather have a man-made tolerance based on the Gospel of peace than a man-made hostility justified by a false interpretation of prophecy.

 

Do you believe that God is finished with Israel and all the promises and covenants which God gave to Israel, have been "transferred" to the church?

 

God finished with Israel as a nation after they rejected 40 years of Apostolic preaching. That does NOTmean he has finished with the Jews. They are always welcome into the kingdom of Jesus through the Gospel. National Israel was the focus for the Messianic prophecies. Messiah came completed his saving work, even through his rejection, and through his Apostles, speaking in the power of the Holy Spirit, proclaimed free forgiveness through his shed blood. Israel as an nation has no further significance. Believing Jew & Gentile together comprise the redeemed people of God.

 

Hebrews makes it very clear that the covenant blood of Jesus supercedes all the old covenant blood shedding. The old covenant with temple & sacrificial worship, centred on Jerusalem & the land promised to Abraham is now FINISHED. 

 

Heb. 13:²⁰ Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

²¹ Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

  

  

 

[LindaR]

The following is excerpted from chapter 10 (The New Covenant) of Dr. Renald Showers’ book “There Really Is a Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology”.

 

Concluding Considerations

 

It is apparent that Jesus established the New Covenant when He shed His blood on the cross (Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 8:6-13; 9:15; 12:24) .  The Church, which began shortly after Christ’s death (Acts 2:1-4;11:15),  has partaken of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant.  According to the Apostle Paul’s teaching in Romans 11, during the time of the Church, a remnant of liter, national Israel is being saved by the grace fo God through faith in Christ.  Those Israelites who make up that remnant become members of the Church through salvation.  They thereby partake of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant, as do the other members of the Church.  They do not, however partake of the material and national blessings of the New Covenant, as the rest of the Church does not.

 

By contrast with the remnant, during the time of the Church, the majority of literal, national Israel does not become saved because of its hardened unbelief.  As a result, that majority does not obtain any of the promised blessings of the New Covenant, even though it seeks many of those blessings during the present Church age.  Because of their unbelief, the Israelites who make up the majority of the nation have been removed by God from the place of covenant blessings which the nation of Israel enjoyed with God in the past.  This means, then, that national Israel failed to enter the New Covenant relationship with God in conjunction with Messiah’s first coming.

 

While the majority of national Israel remains in unbelief outside the place of covenant blessing, many Gentiles, who originally were not in that place of blessing, are being grafted into it by the grace of God through faith in Christ.  These saved Gentiles are members of the Church.  They are grafted into the place of covenant blessing in the sense that they partake of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant, as do the remnant Israelite members of the Church.

 

In spite of the fact that believing Gentiles are grafted into the place of covenant blessing in the place of the unbelieving majority of national Israel, that does not mean that the fulfillment of the New Covenant with literal, national Israel has been nullified.  Paul made it very clear that the majority of national Israel will not be removed from the place of covenant blessing forever.  That removal is only temporary.  When the great harvest of Gentile souls has been gathered and Messiah returns, national Israel will be saved and placed back into the place of covenant blessing (Romans 11:23-27).  As a result, at that time literal, national Israel will enter fully into the New Covenant relationship with God, and all the promises (spiritual, material, and national) of that covenant will be fulfilled completely with that nation.  Thus, although national Israel failed to enter the New Covenant relationship with God in conjunction with Messiah’s first coming, t will enter that relationship in conjunction with His Second Coming.

 

In Romans 11, therefore, Paul explained how the Church now partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant.  The complete fulfillment of that covenant with national Israel, however, has not been and never will be nullified.

 

Source: Excerpt from “There Really Is A Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology” by Renald E. Showers, chapter 10, The New Covenant, pg. 109-111.

[Covenanter]

The following is excerpted from chapter 10 (The New Covenant) of Dr. Renald Showers’ book “There Really Is a Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology”.

 

How could I disagree with that title?!?

 

Concluding Considerations

 

It is apparent that Jesus established the New Covenant when He shed His blood on the cross (Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 8:6-13; 9:15; 12:24) .  The Church, which began shortly after Christ’s death (Acts 2:1-4;11:15),  has partaken of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant.  According to the Apostle Paul’s teaching in Romans 11, during the time of the Church, a remnant of liter, national Israel is being saved by the grace fo God through faith in Christ.  Those Israelites who make up that remnant become members of the Church through salvation.  They thereby partake of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant, as do the other members of the Church. 

 

I'm in agreement so far.

 

They do not, however partake of the material and national blessings of the New Covenant, as the rest of the Church does not.

 

There you've lost me. Surely the "material & national blessings of the NC" are eternal, ultimately fulfilled perfectly in the NH&NE, not the supposed millennium - & only for those who believe the Messiah, not for those who reject him.

 

 

 

By contrast with the remnant, during the time of the Church, the majority of literal, national Israel does not become saved because of its hardened unbelief.  As a result, that majority does not obtain any of the promised blessings of the New Covenant, even though it seeks many of those blessings during the present Church age.  Because of their unbelief, the Israelites who make up the majority of the nation have been removed by God from the place of covenant blessings which the nation of Israel enjoyed with God in the past.  This means, then, that national Israel failed to enter the New Covenant relationship with God in conjunction with Messiah’s first coming. Agreed.

 

While the majority of national Israel remains in unbelief outside the place of covenant blessing, many Gentiles, who originally were not in that place of blessing, are being grafted into it by the grace of God through faith in Christ.  These saved Gentiles are members of the Church.  They are grafted into the place of covenant blessing in the sense that they partake of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant, as do the remnant Israelite members of the Church. Agreed.

 

In spite of the fact that believing Gentiles are grafted into the place of covenant blessing in the place of the unbelieving majority of national Israel, - so Showers teaches "replacement theology" - I do not - that does not mean that the fulfillment of the New Covenant with literal, national Israel has been nullified. God's NC stands firm for all eternity, but they must partake of th eNC by faith in Jesus Christ. Paul made it very clear that the majority of national Israel will not be removed from the place of covenant blessing forever.  That removal is only temporary.  When the great harvest of Gentile souls has been gathered and Messiah returns, national Israel will be saved and placed back into the place of covenant blessing (Romans 11:23-27).  As a result, at that time literal, national Israel will enter fully into the New Covenant relationship with God, and all the promises (spiritual, material, and national) of that covenant will be fulfilled completely with that nation.  Thus, although national Israel failed to enter the New Covenant relationship with God in conjunction with Messiah’s first coming, t will enter that relationship in conjunction with His Second Coming. Now he is reading what is not written in Romans 11. See my previous answer. Note that Peter assures us that Christians are a holy nation, etc, as God assured Israel.

 

Ex. 19:⁵ Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

⁶ And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

 

1 Peter 2:⁹ But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

¹⁰ Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

I don't think Peter could be clearer in his absolute rejection of what Showers asserts.

 

 

In Romans 11, therefore, Paul explained how the Church now partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant.  The complete fulfillment of that covenant with national Israel, however, has not been and never will be nullified.

 

The NC can NEVER be nullified - in is in the blood of Jesus, but if individual Jews, citizens of nation Israel, wish to enter that NC, they must repent & believe in Jesus as Lord & Saviour.

 

Acts 26:¹⁸ To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

¹⁹ Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

²⁰ But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

²¹ For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

²² Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

²³ That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

 

Source: Excerpt from “There Really Is A Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology” by Renald E. Showers, chapter 10, The New Covenant, pg. 109-111.

 

I presume he believes that 2/3 of the Jews will perish at Armageddon, & that the survivors will believe when they see Jesus. Thus since the NC was inaugurated at the cross, 2,000 years of Jews will have perished, plus 2/3 of those who will be alive when Jesus returns for the so--called "rapture." How then does Showers assert, "Paul made it very clear that the majority of national Israel will not be removed from the place of covenant blessing forever." They have been, unless there is (please God) a massive revival & turning to Jesus before he comes again.

 

I have discussed this with you folk for years, but nobody has made the case for a future earthly millennium when all the OT promises to Israel are realised - Showers has failed badly. The earthly millennium - paradise on earth? - ends with the population of the earth in Satanic rebellion against the saints, and presumably Jesus in person, reigning in Jerusalem. It just doesn't make sense - eternal NC blessings ending with rebellion & fire from heaven, & a NH&NE being created.

 

The idyllic picture Isaiah paints CANNOT end like that. Rev. 20 prophesies the present age will end as prophesied by Paul:

2 Thes. 2:⁴ So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

⁵ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

⁶ Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

⁷ And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

⁸ In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

⁹ Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

¹⁰ When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

Where does unrepentant Israel fit into that scenario?

 

Footnote:

The OC was with Israel, & required obedience to ALL God's commands & was hopelessly broken. The NC is with man IN CHRIST & he perfectly fulfilled every detail, so it CANNOT be broken. He gives his Holy Spirit into our hearts, so that we willing obey.  Praise the Lord for his glorious salvation! (Rom. 11)

 

[Invicta]

The following is excerpted from chapter 10 (The New Covenant) of Dr. Renald Showers’ book “There Really Is a Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology”.

 

 I don't think there is a verb "excerpted"  

[LindaR]

 I don't think there is a verb "excerpted"  

Yes there is:

Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

[Invicta]

Must be an Americanism.

 

We would say "An excerpt from."

[John81]

Must be an Americanism.

 

We would say "An excerpt from."

Kind of like the difference between saying "repeat" or "I say again".

[Covenanter]

4 comments - all

 

I think my careful examination of Linda's #22 & #24 needs a reasoned reply. And no, despite #22, I do not consider there are any NT Scriptures that teach a glorious future for Israel or anyone else who has not been saved before Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment.