Dichotomy vs Trichotomy

[JerryNumbers]

The soul & spirit are 2 different things, yet its hard at times to tell the difference between the 2. Yet animals do not have both.

[anime4christ]

Bro, if you look in earlier posts you'll see that I agree that soul can refer to the whole person, life, emotions, heart, etc. The soul that sinneth it shall die can refer to the person or maybe even the Second Death. The point is, it's not referring to what happened to Adam and Paul. What part of Adam died in the garden?

It's convenient that you say that Paul was speaking metaphorically when he said that he was alive without the law but when the commandment came sin revived and he died. Romans is the most detailed textbook on Church Age Christian doctrine and yet Paul didn't really mean it all too literally?

You're assuming that people are born spiritually dead. You believe that If a baby dies it goes to Heaven, right? It's not born spiritually dead and separated from God then - that happens later which is what Paul was talking about. The death of the spirit happens at the age of accountability.

Romans 5:


12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

What Paul meant by dying when the law came is separate from the soul dying. I put those in separate paragraphs and didn't mean them to be read together. I was just answering several points in your post.

The passage from Romans 5 which I posted explains what Paul meant by dying when the law came. He was dead before, as before the law came, but when the law came, it revealed that he was dead. He did not know it before the law. The law wasn't what killed him. Sin killed him. But the law revealed that when it came. That is the purpose of the law. It was never meant to save anyone; only reveal the fact that we're lost. Of course I take Romans literally. I just understand that he literally meant to use some metaphors in it to get his point across.

The Bible teaches that we are born spiritually dead. The Romans 5 passage I quoted teaches that, as well as other passages.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. - Psalm 51:5

There is no age of accountability in the Bible. There are periods in which a child does not have an understanding of good and evil, but the Bible does not say they are not accountable. Quite the opposite; one can be punished even if he did not know what he did was evil, but to a lesser degree:


And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:47-48

I know those verses speak of adults, but they destroy the idea that people can be held unaccountable for their sins if they did not know it was sin. The only way anyone can be free from having to give an account for their sins is through Jesus' sacrifice. He settled the accounts for all who will be saved.

Do I believe children who die go to heaven? I think so, but I can't say for sure because the Bible is silent on the subject (and for good reason I believe). The only way they would be saved though is still by grace and by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ; no other way. Children are not born sinless and therefore can only be saved by Jesus' sacrifice.

In any case, that is a different topic. If you want, we could discuss it on another thread.

[anime4christ]

The soul & spirit are 2 different things, yet its hard at times to tell the difference between the 2. Yet animals do not have both.

When the Bible uses the word soul to speak of the whole being (used far more often in the Bible than when talking about the spiritual aspect of man or other creature) then it is very easy to see the difference. When the Bible uses the word to speak of only the spiritual aspect of man, then the description is identical to that of the spirit. The reason is because it is used as a synonym for spirit then. Otherwise, why would we have two human spirits within us? Or is the immaterial soul of a different substance than the spirit? Are there two separate immaterial realms where one is spiritual and one is soulish?

Neither we nor animals posses both a soul and a spirit. Both we and animals are souls which are composed of a material body and of a spirit. Saying we posses a soul is saying we posses our being. The Bible uses both words - soul and spirit - when talking about animals and humans in Hebrew. The reason why the terms are often used interchangeably is because the spiritual and the physical are so intertwined in the soul that we cannot separate them. Only death can and that is why death is so devastating. The body and the spirit are not meant to be apart and at the resurrection, God will set that right again and our souls (beings) will rejoice with both new body and spirit in God forever.

[JerryNumbers]

Romans 5:


12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

What Paul meant by dying when the law came is separate from the soul dying. I put those in separate paragraphs and didn't mean them to be read together. I was just answering several points in your post.

The passage from Romans 5 which I posted explains what Paul meant by dying when the law came. He was dead before, as before the law came, but when the law came, it revealed that he was dead. He did not know it before the law. The law wasn't what killed him. Sin killed him. But the law revealed that when it came. That is the purpose of the law. It was never meant to save anyone; only reveal the fact that we're lost. Of course I take Romans literally. I just understand that he literally meant to use some metaphors in it to get his point across.

The Bible teaches that we are born spiritually dead. The Romans 5 passage I quoted teaches that, as well as other passages.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. - Psalm 51:5

There is no age of accountability in the Bible. There are periods in which a child does not have an understanding of good and evil, but the Bible does not say they are not accountable. Quite the opposite; one can be punished even if he did not know what he did was evil, but to a lesser degree:


And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:47-48

I know those verses speak of adults, but they destroy the idea that people can be held unaccountable for their sins if they did not know it was sin. The only way anyone can be free from having to give an account for their sins is through Jesus' sacrifice. He settled the accounts for all who will be saved.

Do I believe children who die go to heaven? I think so, but I can't say for sure because the Bible is silent on the subject (and for good reason I believe). The only way they would be saved though is still by grace and by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ; no other way. Children are not born sinless and therefore can only be saved by Jesus' sacrifice.

In any case, that is a different topic. If you want, we could discuss it on another thread.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Php 1:21 ¶ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Ps 116:15 Precious in

I guess God, Paul, & even I feel different about death, than you do.

1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

I understand those that are lost, seeing death as devastating, for if what they believed were true, they are forever gone, turning to dust forever, never to see their family again, that would be devastating in a way, but I suppose if what they believe were true, death would be an escape for pain & suffering. Of course we know for the lost after death, the worse is to come, it is not an escape, it hell, eternal punishment, everlasting damnation, the lake of fire, the 2nd death. But for us, that is the saved, the best is yet to come, so I cannot see death as devastating. No, there's many more things worse than death itself, for Jesus did take the sting out of death, He did overcome the our last enemy.

A while back a fellow believer made the statement about life, "My life is not going to good at the moment, but its better than the alterative."
I asked him, "You are saved, are you not?" He said, "Yes."

I them said, "The alterative is heaven, surely you don't believe the troubles you've recently gone through will be worse than heaven, do you?" He said, "No."

I them replied, "Them to die is gain, going to heaven is much better than being here, in heaven there will be no suffering, no pain, & we can have rest. Now, for the lost, life what ever state it may be, isn't as bad as the alterative, for the alterative is hell, eternal punishment, everlasting damnation, the lake of fire, the 2nd death."

No, Paul did not look at death as being a bad thing, but looked at it as gain, he knew exactly what to expect, that's the way I see it as well.

Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Yes, it will be a pleasant experience, not devastating. I firmly believe at that moment God sends angels for us just as He did for the beggar, Lazarus.

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

No, animals do not posses both soul & spirit. Animals are not made in the image of God, God only made man in the image of God, & if we are made in the image of God, we have both body, soul & spirit.

Animals cannot be saved, but man can, keep on studying it, you will soon understand.

Maybe this will help.




1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[anime4christ]

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Php 1:21 ¶ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Ps 116:15 Precious in

I guess God, Paul, & even I feel different about death, than you do.

1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

I understand those that are lost, seeing death as devastating, for if what they believed were true, they are forever gone, turning to dust forever, never to see their family again, that would be devastating in a way, but I suppose if what they believe were true, death would be an escape for pain & suffering. Of course we know for the lost after death, the worse is to come, it is not an escape, it hell, eternal punishment, everlasting damnation, the lake of fire, the 2nd death. But for us, that is the saved, the best is yet to come, so I cannot see death as devastating. No, there's many more things worse than death itself, for Jesus did take the sting out of death, He did overcome the our last enemy.

A while back a fellow believer made the statement about life, "My life is not going to good at the moment, but its better than the alterative."
I asked him, "You are saved, are you not?" He said, "Yes."

I them said, "The alterative is heaven, surely you don't believe the troubles you've recently gone through will be worse than heaven, do you?" He said, "No."

I them replied, "Them to die is gain, going to heaven is much better than being here, in heaven there will be no suffering, no pain, & we can have rest. Now, for the lost, life what ever state it may be, isn't as bad as the alterative, for the alterative is hell, eternal punishment, everlasting damnation, the lake of fire, the 2nd death."

No, Paul did not look at death as being a bad thing, but looked at it as gain, he knew exactly what to expect, that's the way I see it as well.

Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Yes, it will be a pleasant experience, not devastating. I firmly believe at that moment God sends angels for us just as He did for the beggar, Lazarus.

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

What I mean is that death is devastating from a human point of view in and of itself. The reason why it is ultimately not devastating to us is because Jesus has conquered death with His resurrection, and we have hope in the resurrection as well because of that. However, physical death is still a judgment for sin that our flesh will have to suffer, but it has been overcome by Jesus. In other words, I do agree with all that you said, but death still is at the same time, not a good thing in and of itself. It is only good for those who will be, as Jesus was, resurrected to glory. I won't argue on this point anymore however, because I think we agree here, but are just talking about the same thing from two different angles.

No, animals do not posses both soul & spirit. Animals are not made in the image of God, God only made man in the image of God, & if we are made in the image of God, we have both body, soul & spirit.

Animals cannot be saved, but man can, keep on studying it, you will soon understand.

Maybe this will help.

1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But why does the Bible use the word soul in Hebrew when talking about animals? When God created man in His image, it plainly states that the man became a living soul, and his composition was that of dust of the earth (body) and breath of life (spirit). The result was a living soul (being). Genesis 1 and 2 are what say this, not I.

Animals are living beings as well, but they have no need in salvation because they have not sinned as man has. So obviously Jesus did not die for the frogs and the cats and the giraffes, but only for man.

I will admit that 1 Thess. 5:23 is the only serious contender in the Bible for a trichotomist view, but it could also signify the whole being of man rather than his composition. I don't want to just brush the verse off, so I won't say that too quickly. I want to take all of the Bible seriously, and from my study, I see the Bible as a whole supporting dichotomy more than trichotomy. One reason why I think the said verse is talking about the complete man rather than the raw composition of man is because of verses such as Mark 12:30: "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." This verse mentions 4 parts, but they are not 4 separate spiritual entities within us.

Can we say that the soul, when not talking about the whole being in the Bible, is referring to a part of our immaterial part or spirit rather than a separate entity? Would that not better explain why the soul and spirit are so similar?

[anime4christ]

So, what are the implications and practical applications of each doctrine?

I've come to a dichotomist position a relatively short time ago, so the only ones I know of so far of dichotomy are these:

1) Because a soul is a complete being, the human body and spirit were never meant to be separate. Death, therefore, in and of itself is a bad thing.

2) Therefore, the resurrection is the only solution to the problem of death, and is therefore an extremely important event.

3) The intermediate state, while better than suffering in our current bodies, is still not completely good, and was never meant to be the solution to death (Philippians 1:23).

4) Since man is a dichotomy, every psychological problem (psyche = soul) is also a spiritual or physical problem (such as brain damage). Therefore, when we have a psychological problem, we may either need spiritual help, and/or physical help (eg. medications, surgery). There is no need for secular psychology which attempts to help with spiritual problems without God. Also, someone who has or afterwards develops a mental disability which is physical can still be saved because it is the spirit that is saved, and not the body (prior to the resurrection).

Possible but not requires implications:

5) A soul which is dead (soul meaning being) may or may not be conscious prior to the resurrection. This depends on if the consciousness is centered in the body or the spirit. From the Bible, it is implied that the human spirit is conscious, so I believe it is. The level of consciousness is probably different from that experienced in the body, but I think trichotomists would agree with this as well.

6) Man has only two forces working within him: the spirit and the flesh. If the spirit is alive, it only desires the things God desires. The flesh however, only desires its own gratification. There is no third force which can choose good or evil apart from the spirit and the flesh yielding to or conquering each other. Therefore, dichotomy is usually most common among Reformed (aka Calvinist and Covenental) folk.

So, what are the implications and practical applications of trichotomy? I could list some I have observed myself as a former trichotomist, but I'd rather have someone who believes it and knows it better than I do list them instead. Personally, I found the doctrine for the most part irrelevant to the rest of the doctrine I had back then except that trichotomy fits much easier with free will. I want to know what the actual practical implications and applications are for the doctrine though. Thanks.

[anime4christ]

Um, anybody know what the significance of a trichotomous view is? That's really my last question on the subject. I personally don't see any, but I just might be wrong.

[Covenanter]

Fascinating discussion - & a possible relevance is seen in

18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19

By which also he we

nt

and preached u

nt

o the spirits in prison;

20

Which sometime were dis

ob

edie

nt

, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

But the logic of Calvary's argument (#139) is that Man is tripartite, & that at death:

"According to the Bible his body, soul, and spirit each we

nt

to differe

nt

places.

His body was placed i

nt

o the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea.

"

"his spirit returned to his Father "

"...

paradise was, indeed,

down

in the

"heart of the earth."

Is there any indication as to where the souls of Old Testame

nt

sai

nt

s we

nt

when they died? "

To be fair, he has promised a further post.

The obvious problem is that Peter says:

by the Spirit:

19

By which also he we

nt

and preached u

nt

o the spirits in prison;

whereas by Calvary's logic, at death it was Jesus' soul that descended to hell.

[Brother Rick]

That's right, Ian. Christ's spirit went to the Father ("...into thy hands I commend my spirit...") , His body was in the tomb for three days, and His soul went to the heart of the Earth for three days.

[Covenanter]

That's right, Ian. Christ's spirit went to the Father ("...into thy hands I commend my spirit...") , His body was in the tomb for three days, and His soul went to the heart of the Earth for three days.

But was "the heart of the earth" Paradise or Hell - or the tomb?

[Calvary]

Fascinating discussion - & a possible relevance is seen in

18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19

By which also he we

nt

and preached u

nt

o the spirits in prison;

20

Which sometime were dis

ob

edie

nt

, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

But the logic of Calvary's argument (#139) is that Man is tripartite, & that at death:

"According to the Bible his body, soul, and spirit each we

nt

to differe

nt

places.

His body was placed i

nt

o the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea.

"

"his spirit returned to his Father "

"...

paradise was, indeed,

down

in the

"heart of the earth."

Is there any indication as to where the souls of Old Testame

nt

sai

nt

s we

nt

when they died? "

To be fair, he has promised a further post.

The obvious problem is that Peter says:

by the Spirit:

19

By which also he we

nt

and preached u

nt

o the spirits in prison;

whereas by Calvary's logic, at death it was Jesus' soul that descended to hell.

By does not mean "as". So your interpretation adds nothing. There is no obvious problem and yet you contradict your previous interpretation of this very verse! Earlier you stated (on the 1 Peter thread) that this verse by no means allows that Jesus preached to any dead, but that it was Noah preaching to disobedient men THROUGH the Spirit! Try to keep your surmising in order my good man, you're getting muddled.

I am not presenting any logic at all. I have merely quoted verses that plainly declare that Jesus as a triune being, as all men are, had distinct components of activity in the 3 days between His death and resurrection. Quoting scripture is not logic. In fact, I try not to lean unto my own understanding.

God bless,
Calvary Edited December 28, 2011 by Calvary

[Brother Rick]

But was "the heart of the earth" Paradise or Hell - or the tomb?

Paradise, because Jesus told the thief on the cross that He'd be with him "this day" in paradise. Edited December 28, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[anime4christ]

Rick: so why did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison and not souls? Also, I've never heard of the soul and the spirit being in different places after death. What then is a spirit if all spirits go to God while the souls go to paradise or Hell? Are the spirits of those who are in Hell with God? Are those people then experiencing torment and fellowship with God simultaneously? Which brings us back to the first question? Why are those spirits in prison and why does Jesus' soul peach to them?

[anime4christ]

Calvary: God is beyond our logic and we must trust him above our fallen understanding, but God is not illogical..he calls us to reason so there is nothing wrong with using logic and reason to some extant when studying the bible..unless you do have a problem with God's command to reason..

[John81]

I recall a preacher saying that since Jesus was made sin He had to descend into hell in order for the wrath of God to be satisfied. Once that was accomplished, He left there, taking the keys with Him, stripping Satan of his power.