A Crazy, Dangerous, Frightening, Good Idea.

[John81]

john81,
most of that is basic stuff, but you, nor anyone else knows whether the Lord moves in that way once-in-a-while or not. Do you think Pilate would have cared what happened if it were not for the uproar? And what about John the Baptist, I am sure that he was criticized and ostracized much the same way. God does whatever pleases Him, and glorifies His name.

As for taxes, I pay them because its the law, not because I want to; talk about compelled giving...

Christians are to live according to the Word of God. The Holy Spirit gave us all we need to know in the NT as to how we are to conduct ourselves as Christians. Pilate wasn't a Christian so anything he did or didn't do is moot. John the Baptist was obeying the Word of God and his actions and words agreed with the Word of God.

What has been presented here as an idea to confront abortion is unscriptural. The Lord didn't tell Christians how to live in this world only to tell some to do it differently. Doing anything contrary to the Word of God is going against God. The Word is very clear with regards to our relations to governments, society, and people in general, and it's never to take matters in our own hands. We are to effect the world around us by being witnesses of Christ, both in word and in how we live our lives. We are never to use worldly means in an attempt to "do good" or to "help God".

God has set forth what we are to do and what Joel has proposed is outside those bounds. Myself and others have pointed out the biblical approach, which is the only true course for a Christian, and have advised searching the NT for confirmation and further guidance.

God's ways don't tend to be as flashy or as easy but they are the right way. Much more self-gratifying and easy to rush forth and doing something ourselves, whether it be making a ruckus at a checkout counter or trying to prevent abortionists from entering their building, than it is to do the hard work God commands us to do, which involves submitting our will to His and spending much time in prayer and fasting.

It's never better to take the easy route of human action but it's always best to take the route God has called us to, the straight and narrow route, and get our hearts right with God, our wills in line with His, taking on the battle in spriritual places as the Lord commands, drawing on the Lord through prayer and fasting, and having full trust and faith in God that all things will work together for good as we obey Him.

[irishman]

Christians are to live according to the Word of God. The Holy Spirit gave us all we need to know in the NT as to how we are to conduct ourselves as Christians. Pilate wasn't a Christian so anything he did or didn't do is moot. John the Baptist was obeying the Word of God and his actions and words agreed with the Word of God.

What has been presented here as an idea to confront abortion is unscriptural. The Lord didn't tell Christians how to live in this world only to tell some to do it differently. Doing anything contrary to the Word of God is going against God. The Word is very clear with regards to our relations to governments, society, and people in general, and it's never to take matters in our own hands. We are to effect the world around us by being witnesses of Christ, both in word and in how we live our lives. We are never to use worldly means in an attempt to "do good" or to "help God".

God has set forth what we are to do and what Joel has proposed is outside those bounds. Myself and others have pointed out the biblical approach, which is the only true course for a Christian, and have advised searching the NT for confirmation and further guidance.

God's ways don't tend to be as flashy or as easy but they are the right way. Much more self-gratifying and easy to rush forth and doing something ourselves, whether it be making a ruckus at a checkout counter or trying to prevent abortionists from entering their building, than it is to do the hard work God commands us to do, which involves submitting our will to His and spending much time in prayer and fasting.

It's never better to take the easy route of human action but it's always best to take the route God has called us to, the straight and narrow route, and get our hearts right with God, our wills in line with His, taking on the battle in spriritual places as the Lord commands, drawing on the Lord through prayer and fasting, and having full trust and faith in God that all things will work together for good as we obey Him.

Why is it that whenever we disagree the other guy isn't reading his Bible? This is a subtle deception to "Prove" in ones own mind that he's right and the opposers are either backslidden or do not read their Bibles. (which would still be backsliding) You cannot prove, scripturally, that the Lord does not use some methods that we do not understand, but i have made at least two comparisons, which are valid, and they have been brushed away. You do things as the Spirit leads you, and I will do them as the Spirit leads me. At least others will know that there is a Christian present, for whatever its worth. (By the way, I pray every morninf and fast occasionally (I am diabetic) and that has not changed much in the last 30 years or so.)

[John81]

Why is it that whenever we disagree the other guy isn't reading his Bible? This is a subtle deception to "Prove" in ones own mind that he's right and the opposers are either backslidden or do not read their Bibles. (which would still be backsliding) You cannot prove, scripturally, that the Lord does not use some methods that we do not understand, but i have made at least two comparisons, which are valid, and they have been brushed away. You do things as the Spirit leads you, and I will do them as the Spirit leads me. At least others will know that there is a Christian present, for whatever its worth. (By the way, I pray every morninf and fast occasionally (I am diabetic) and that has not changed much in the last 30 years or so.)

I never said you didn't read the Bible. I said the answers are in the Bible and pointed Joel to search there.

The Holy Ghost NEVER leads Christians to do something contrary to the Word of God. This is the main point and why we all must meditate upon the Word day and night and take everything to the Lord in prayer. What Joel has advocated goes against the Word of God. The Spirit would not, could not, lead Joel, you, me, or anyone else do that which is contrary to the Word of God.

Any and all leading by the Spirit will always be within the bounds of the Word of God.

What does the Word say with regards to paying taxes? We are clearly commanded to pay our taxes.

What does Scripture say about lies, and deception is a lie? Clearly we are not to engage in this.

What does Scripture say about what we are to do with our lives if we are Christs? Clearly we are to submit our will to His, we are to set our eyes upon Jesus and obey His Word.

How do we live in this world of evil? We don't become a part of it, we put on the nature of Christ, we spread the Gospel, we make disciples, we take everything to the Lord in prayer, we do all things God's way.

There is nothing in the New Covenant that gives Christians a green light to do what Joel has suggested. In the meantime, there is plenty to clearly say such a move is wrong, is sin.

[irishman]

I never said you didn't read the Bible. I said the answers are in the Bible and pointed Joel to search there.

The Holy Ghost NEVER leads Christians to do something contrary to the Word of God. This is the main point and why we all must meditate upon the Word day and night and take everything to the Lord in prayer. What Joel has advocated goes against the Word of God. The Spirit would not, could not, lead Joel, you, me, or anyone else do that which is contrary to the Word of God.

Any and all leading by the Spirit will always be within the bounds of the Word of God.

What does the Word say with regards to paying taxes? We are clearly commanded to pay our taxes.

What does Scripture say about lies, and deception is a lie? Clearly we are not to engage in this.

What does Scripture say about what we are to do with our lives if we are Christs? Clearly we are to submit our will to His, we are to set our eyes upon Jesus and obey His Word.

How do we live in this world of evil? We don't become a part of it, we put on the nature of Christ, we spread the Gospel, we make disciples, we take everything to the Lord in prayer, we do all things God's way.

There is nothing in the New Covenant that gives Christians a green light to do what Joel has suggested. In the meantime, there is plenty to clearly say such a move is wrong, is sin.

John, you are right, we should pay what we owe. I was thinking more of the unconventional tactics that we often criticize, and forgot that the thread was about refusing to pay taxes. Sorry about all the confusion.

[John81]

John, you are right, we should pay what we owe. I was thinking more of the unconventional tactics that we often criticize, and forgot that the thread was about refusing to pay taxes. Sorry about all the confusion.

We all get confused in these threads sometimes brother.

I agree that, within the bounds of Scripture, we are not all called to use the same approach in every matter any more than we are all called to deal with the same specific things or have the same calling. Even when it comes to something as certain as sharing the Gospel. We are all called to share the Gospel, but not all are called to share it in the same way. Some may be called as missionaries, some as street preachers, some through involvement in a church group, some individually, some in partnership, etc. So long as each is sharing the Gospel scripturally and obeying the lead of the Holy Ghost, they are keeping the Word and obeying the Lord.

[HappyChristian]

Crush, as has been said, kudos to you for being burdened about this and trying to do something. I have to agree with the majority, but my take might be a bit different...

Sales taxes actually do not go to fund abortions (the money from taxes that does this is federal money). Sales tax money supports the state in which it is collected. This is actually a Constitutional tax and one that should be implemented rather than income taxes, which are, as irishman put it, compelled giving...or, as I put it: extortion. We can dress it up all we want and say that Jesus ordered us to pay our taxes, but the truth of the matter lies in between total total unquestioning obedience to everything the government says and total disregard of taxes. Jesus was referencing the paying of taxes as the government had set up. Our government is a different setup, and one which allows citizens to protest and do things to change direction. But...staging a protest at the cash register will not accomplish this because it is a law that sales tax is to be collected.

The clerk at the cash register has nothing to do with the sales tax (or even the price of the merchandise, or the quality - unless the clerk is also the owner) and to punish the clerk would actually cause a blight on you as a Christian. Think about how hard it would be for a Christian later to be credible in his/her witness to that clerk if he/she had been (as it would feel like) harassed because of where the tax might be used.

Our Constitution has written in the Bill of Rights one effective way of addressing issues like this: petitioning the government for redress of grievances. This would include calling/writing your congressmen (both state and US) and other congressmen in other states. It would include actually getting up a petition and circulating it to send to both state and US congress (I say state because it is way past time for the individual states to stand up in nullification of the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision).

Youtube is a good place to post videos about what abortion is and why it is wrong...and to promote contacting congressmen. Facebook is a good tool to get word out about a petition - and even linking an online petition for people to sign and promote to their friends.

As a Christian, we need to pray diligently about this. And we need to not shirk our duty...if God is laying this burden on you, Joel, there's a reason. He will show you exactly what He would have you do about this if you seek His face (as I know you do).

And, BTW, since God chose to put us in the United States of America, a country in which the people are Ceasar, not the government, we have a responsibility to ourselves, our neighbors and our posterity (like our forefathers said in the preamble...) to be the best citizen we can be. That begins as a Christian, but does not end with being involved in ways to make things better. But Biblical principles should never be abandoned, ignored or overlooked while doing so.

"Occupy til I come..."

[Bro Jim]

1 Samuel 8:17 "He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants."

If a tenth made the Israelites servants/slaves then what about the 3 -4 tenths we pay?

I don't advocate a revolt, but we have remained silent for to long, I read somewhere these stats,

Contacting your government representatives,

1 letter = 10 +/- phone calls = 100 emails.

A letter holds more sway than an email, and most emails just get processed by a impersonal sever.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Bro Jim

[HappyChristian]

Just think, 38 years ago Roe v. Wade became the law of the land by a tortuous twisting of the Constitution by SCOTUS. 50 million babies murdered in the name of "legality."

I wonder how many would have been...doctors, teachers, pastors, missionaries, linguists, etc., etc. :icon_sad: