Original languages necessary for study?

[kevinmiller]

Well, not everyone who believes that the KJV is the best for English speakers is radical. In that sense, I would be KJVO. I used to consider myself as KJVO until I was told off by a bunch of "real" KJVO'ers. Now I'm just TR-only. :wink

[Alen]

Exactly, you are not KJO. (I am on that forum as well, sorry to see you leave ) You are TR only. KJO are always "radical". TR-onlyists I like, they are not afraid of the Greek

-Alen

[Pastor Matt]

KJO are always "radical". TR-onlyists I like, they are not afraid of the Greek

Stereotyping at its finest. Question for you, which version of the TR do you use? There are many different versions/editions of the TR. Which one is the right one?

God has preserved His Word.

So here we go again. Where exactly is it preserved again?

[Alen]

Perhaps my sarcasm wasn't noted. I don't use stereotypes

I am not TR only. God has preserved His word in the 6000+ manuscripts we have available today. As well of course the many faithful translations we have available to us.

-Alen

[Pastor Matt]

Can you tell me exactly which manuscripts and what part of the manuscripts that are preserved in? You are telling me that it is preserved, but I have to get over 6,000 manuscripts in my library to have Gods preserved Words?

If we have many faithful translations today, then why do they contradict themselves in different verses? So which part of which manuscripts and versions are preserved? Or can us English speaking people not have a completely preserved copy?

[Alen]

What I am saying is God's word is preserved in all of them. Yes there is differences, but they are minor if I remember the percentage correctly, they agree about 99.5%. In other words 0.05% is in dispute.

You do have God's word in your hand, in a KJV in an ESV, NIV, NASB etc. The reason translations differ among themselves is because of different translation methods, or different manuscripts used. Some verses are clearer in one version than another, the NIV in several places makes Christs deity very clear, whilst the KJV makes it ambiguous.

Using the argument which one of them is God's word is stupid, that's like arguing which KJV you should use, the 1850, 1769, the 1629 or the 1611? Even once you decided then, you must choose which publisher, since Oxford and Cambridge KJV differ, not to mention Zondervan, and probably other publishers. All the differences are minor.

[chev1958]

Where does it say that God will give English speaking people a Bible?

C'mon, dwayner, that's a non sequitur. How could we know God's word, unless He planned to give us all the ability to know the original languages? His word was already composed in two (some say three) languages, so obviously God knew there would be other languages. In fact, He created them at the Tower of Babel. So, I'm sure He already thought about how His word was going to reach all the millions of non-Hebrew, non-Aramaic, and non-Greek speaking peoples.

Using your logic, when everyone heard the gospel being preached in their own tongues in Acts 2, I guess they were receiving less-than-perfect translations. Do you really think that?

Now, if all we're really discussing is that there's no perfect word-for-word translation, then I'll give you that point. Just the example of the different words for "love" in the Greek illustrates that point. But if you're saying that the God Who created language and all its differences did not produce perfect Scripture in English or whatever other language is out there, then I say you're wrong.

Personally, I would like to see a more updated Scripture for our time. It would make it so much easier to preach, because I wouldn't have to stop and explain that "conversation" means "lifestyle" and which "love" fits a particular context. However, I haven't seen a better English translation yet.

For Alen:

Tell me Mitch, where is their perfect Bible? Oh wait, that's a privilege only an English speaking person has.

Tell me, Alen, where did I say this? That's completely uncalled for and asinine. I challenged your statement that God hasn't given a perfect Scripture in English. I said nothing about other languages. In fact, I agree with you that God has allowed His word to be translated in thousands of other languages, and I would agree that those shouldn't be translated from the KJV. Yet, from your comments, you show your lack of faith that God could preserve His word perfectly in any language He wanted to. If you don't believe God gave you perfect Scripture in English, then what parts do you know to be true and what parts are false? Please, tell us so the rest of us can learn.

You know, the more I hear from you non-KJV'ers (and I used to be one), the more KJV I become.

Mitch

[Pastor Matt]

What I am saying is God's word is preserved in all of them. Yes there is differences, but they are minor if I remember the percentage correctly, they agree about 99.5%. In other words 0.05% is in dispute.

Ok, with that thinking, the Bible is not preserved 100%. Since they do not agree 0.05% of the time who made the mistakes in the manuscripts? And which part 0.05% is not reliable?

You still have not told me which manuscripts are preserved? I really would like to know.

If you don't believe God gave you perfect Scripture in English, then what parts do you know to be true and what parts are false? Please, tell us so the rest of us can learn.

Chev, I have been waiting for an answer from Alen. So far I got that I have to stock over 6,000 manuscripts in my library to have Gods preserved Words, and still they do not agree with each other 100%. That means that Gods Words are not preserved 100%, only 99.5%.

[chev1958]

Some verses are clearer in one version than another, the NIV in several places makes Christs deity very clear, whilst the KJV makes it ambiguous.

And who makes the decision which is the better translation - you? Sorry, Bud, if you can't play baseball with different rulebooks, you can't preach the Gospel using different translations either.

Mitch

[Alen]

All of them are preserved.

If you are asking has God preserved His word 100% then I guess my answer is no. 99.5% is fine by me. It is like a scratch in a CD.

My position may not be the most pleasant one for people to hold, but it is the best one represented by the facts. I however am not so adamant about it to not change my position if someone can truly show me different. This of course would have to explain the issues I raised a page or 2 ago.

In fact, I agree with you that God has allowed His word to be translated in thousands of other languages, and I would agree that those shouldn't be translated from the KJV.

I'm glad to hear that, since languages are all different, most of these translations differ with the KJV, in that case, is the KJV superior to these or not?

f you don't believe God gave you perfect Scripture in English, then what parts do you know to be true and what parts are false? Please, tell us so the rest of us can learn.

It's not what parts are false, and what are true, it's what parts are not translated clearly, and what parts are not. If you study the KJV and understand it fine, don't touch anything else, if you don't use another verse, or the original languages to help you understand better. I use my KJV almost exclusively, I look at other versions once in a while for comparison or for devotional purposes. My KJV is my study Bible, and the one I use most.

You know, the more I hear from you non-KJV'ers (and I used to be one), the more KJV I become.

I don't hate the KJV, in fact I love it, I just hate it when people hold onto something that has no logical, or factual basis, and as a cause perverts their thinking, their is many moderate KJO people out there, but their is many that are not, in another thread I and Kevin talked about people who believe you can only spiritually grow with a KJV, or that it is God, or that you can only get saved off one. They extremists are the ones that put me off the whole thing, being KJO stops a lot of people thinking.

-Alen

[Alen]

And who makes the decision which is the better translation - you? Sorry, Bud, if you can't play baseball with different rulebooks, you can't preach the Gospel using different translations either.

Mitch

If I pull out those verses, you tell me which is clearer on the deity of Christ, I very much doubt you would disagree with me.

-Alen

[Pastor Matt]

All of them are preserved.

If you are asking has God preserved His word 100% then I guess my answer is no. 99.5% is fine by me. It is like a scratch in a CD.

My position may not be the most pleasant one for people to hold.

I can see why your position would be hard to hold. Since they ALL are preserved and do contain errors, that means that God made mistakes when preserving the Scriptures. I for one believe that when God said He would preserve His Words that he did just that, and not just part of it.

So according to you, you are using "Scratch" Scripture. You are right that would be hard for me to hold, I for one trust God 100%, not 99%.

[Alen]

That is fine by me, if you believe that God has preserved it 100% that is good. I don't even care if someone is TR only as I can see how someone can come to that conclusion, however I cannot see how someone can come to the conclusion that the KJV is 100% perfectly preserved whilst it has the issues I mentioned earlier.

-Alen

[Pastor Matt]

That is fine by me, if you believe that God has preserved it 100% that is good. I don't even care if someone is TR only as I can see how someone can come to that conclusion, however I cannot see how someone can come to the conclusion that the KJV is 100% perfectly preserved whilst it has the issues I mentioned earlier.

Funny, I was not even talking about the KJV, I was talking about the manuscripts. (Funny how you are the one that keeps bringing up the KJV) Since the Bible then does contain errors, how can you know which part is right and wrong. Your faith and trust is in man and not the Lord Jesus Christ. I'll pray for you brother. I believe Gods Words 100%, sorry to hear that you only believe part of it.

Let me ask you a question, how do you know that the manuscripts are 99.5% accurate?

[chev1958]

If I pull out those verses, you tell me which is clearer on the deity of Christ, I very much doubt you would disagree with me.

Maybe so, but there are lots of areas where the MVs completely disagree with the KJV and even amongst themselves. Again, who decides which is the correct translation? Man does and will always pick the translation that best fits his personal biases.

Well, since I preached this tonight, let's compare:

Philippians 2:6 (KJV) - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Philippians 2:6 (NIV) - Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Yep, you're right, the NIV is much clearer than the KJV. How could I have missed that one?

Mitch