Rapture Timing – Simplified.

[SGO]

Well John, I agree with this fellow that the rapture is not pre-trib.

I don't agree with the entirety ("Do you agree with this group's other teachings in their entirety...") of any one teacher or group's teachings and I am willing speculate that you don't either.

 

I gave you more than one verse that specifically states that we will be raised on the last day.

You don't like John 6?

Since four of those verses (John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54, John 11:24, 1Corinthians 15:51-52) were spoken by the Lord we can argue about timing until the rapture but the Lord has the final say.

Aren't Jesus' words enough for you to receive and to question your conclusions about a pre-trib rapture?

He is the One who debunks the pre-trib rapture.

 

Please provide even one scripture that expressly says the rapture will be pre-trib.

I have asked you more than once to do so but you have not given any explicit verses so I can conclude there are none.

 

Guess what else happens in the last day?  John 12:48,  you and me both.

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

15 hours ago, SGO said:

I gave you more than one verse that specifically states that we will be raised on the last day.

Guess what else happens in the last day?  John 12:48,  you and me both.

SGO, may I request that you define your understanding concerning our Lord Jesus' use of the phrase "the last day"?  The "last day" of what?  It appears that you are understanding that phrase as a reference to the very last day of all time within this present universe.  Is that a correct understanding for your viewpoint?  Or would you define "the last day" in a different fashion?

[John Young]

15 hours ago, SGO said:

Well John, I agree with this fellow that the rapture is not pre-trib (....) of any one teacher or group's teachings and I am willing speculate that you don't either.

I don't agree with the entirety

Okay, Thankyou. That person's views in no way help this conversation as he thinks Christians "can lose their salvation" (Its not ours to lose) and has a very lose interpretive style with the scriptures. Also I don't see how his arguments against the pre-tib line up with your comments here on teh Last Day. So I won't waste any time discussing his video or arguments.

15 hours ago, SGO said:

Aren't Jesus' words enough for you to receive and to question your conclusions about a pre-trib rapture?

Jesus is enough. I just don't agree that the last day is the same thing as the rapture for the reasons I previously stated. 
 

15 hours ago, SGO said:

Please provide even one scripture that expressly says the rapture will be pre-trib.

First, I need to see what you think a rapture really is before I can give you a verse "debunking" anything as I already showed you that I agree with Jesus on the last day and on the two resurrections separated by one thousand years. I also showed you clear verse that show more than one type of "rising" so merely showing verse on the final "Last Day" (which we both agree will occur on its given day), you need to show that the rapture of the church isn't a prior event. The rapture of saints (ie Enoch, Elija, the church saints who are in the Spirit, etc) does not negate the resurrection of the last day. They are all in agreement as shown in scripture.

[SGO]

You can have the next to the last word. 

 

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

SGO, may I request that you define your understanding concerning our Lord Jesus' use of the phrase "the last day"?  The "last day" of what?  It appears that you are understanding that phrase as a reference to the very last day of all time within this present universe.  Is that a correct understanding for your viewpoint?  Or would you define "the last day" in a different fashion?

The last day means the last day.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

4 hours ago, SGO said:

The last day means the last day.

No sir. The last day means the last day of something. For example - In John 7:37 God Word reports, "In the last day, . . . Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink." Now in the place wherein I provided the ellipsis within the quote, God's Word provides its explanation for the last day of what. For it says, "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus said . . . ."  Thus it is quite appropriate to ask concerning the phrase "at the last day" - the last day of what? Even so, my question to you remains - What last day do you understand our Lord Jesus Christ to be referencing with the phrase "at the last day" in John 6 - the last day of what?

Edited March 6 by Pastor Scott Markle

[SGO]

If you do not like the last day that the Lord was talking about is the real last day

then of course the plain, literal interpretation of

 

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

 

⁵¹ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

⁵² In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

Which last trump is the apostle Paul talking about?

If it does not fit the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture then it's not true no matter who said it.

[SwordmanJr]

Wow. There are all kinds of things flying around on this topic throughout this thread. Interesting indeed.

Rather than cause most to overlook my posts on account of them being too long to draw attention, I'll try to keep my points short for brevity and ease of reading:

The first thing that occurred to me is Revelation itself. The Church is mentioned numerous time throughout the first three chapters, with the Church pictured in Heaven in the fourth chapter.

Strangely, as if the Church had lost its importance for any mention whatsoever, there is not one mention of the Church through any of the chapters that cover the Tribulation events. Not one mention in chapters 6 through 19. Dare we look at this silence for mention with a critical eye, apart from the "saints" being mentioned, there is another image within Revelation that sets the Tribulation saints apart from the Church...the Tribulation martyrs do not have crowns on their heads as does the Church and the OT saints from before the cross. Instead, what they have are white robes and palm branches in their hands.

I've seen Anderson's videos and pulpit pounding antics for emphasis, but I've noticed some flaws in his reasoning...but that is another item altogether.

I have other things I could bring up from an older thread on this site dating back to 2010 about the children and babies before the "point of accountability" argument, but will save those items for another post.

Jr

[Pastor Scott Markle]

12 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

SGO, may I request that you define your understanding concerning our Lord Jesus' use of the phrase "the last day"?  The "last day" of what?  It appears that you are understanding that phrase as a reference to the very last day of all time within this present universe.  Is that a correct understanding for your viewpoint?  Or would you define "the last day" in a different fashion?

9 hours ago, SGO said:

The last day means the last day.

4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

No sir. The last day means the last day of something. For example - In John 7:37 God Word reports, "In the last day, . . . Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink." Now in the place wherein I provided the ellipsis within the quote, God's Word provides its explanation for the last day of what. For it says, "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus said . . . ."  Thus it is quite appropriate to ask concerning the phrase "at the last day" - the last day of what? Even so, my question to you remains - What last day do you understand our Lord Jesus Christ to be referencing with the phrase "at the last day" in John 6 - the last day of what?

3 hours ago, SGO said:

If you do not like the last day that the Lord was talking about is the real last day

My question has nothing to do with what I like or dislike. My question has to do with making sure that I understand your position correctly. Such is the reason that in my first posting above I asked whether I was correct in understanding your viewpoint to be that the phrase "the last day" refers to "the very last day of all time within this present universe." Because you have not been willing to provide a clear definition as I requested, my question remains.

[John Young]

4 hours ago, SGO said:

If it does not fit the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture then it's not true no matter who said it.

No point in discussing a rapture if you aren't even clear on the last day. At this point I would settle for when YOU think the last day actually is. Are your referring to the last day of mankind's rule at the return of Christ at the first resurrection or one thousand years later at the Great White Throne when the kingdom is given to God at the final 2nd Resurrection? You are using verses for both as if they were all the same, yet one has a thousand more days to go. And what do you think of other raisings?

Edited March 7 by John Young