A Type Pictured In Revelation Four

[Jerry]

Jacob had 12 sons. They are listed in the order of their birth, from Genesis 29 on. The first was Reuben - whose name means "Behold, a son." The fourth was Judah, which means "Praise, or Praise of Jehovah (the LORD)." We know this was the line the Messiah came through - the kingly line. The last (12th) son was named Ben-oni ("Son of my sorrow"), but was changed to Benjamin ("Son of my right hand"). All the others are listed in Genesis as well, and it is easy to determine their meanings from Strong's. But that is not essential to where I am going with this.

Next, let's go to Exodus 28. Here we have the High Priest and his garments. The Breastplate, which was worn over the chest, had 12 stones over his heart - one for each tribe of Israel - according to the order of their birth. See verses 15-21 and 29. So look up the first, fourth, and twelfth ones. Got that?

Now, let's go to Revelation 4 and see a type which I have only ever seen explained in one particular commentary. Remember chapters 4 and 5 are what is seen in Heaven in between the Rapture of the church (4:1 - after these things, the church period - chapters 1-3. see also Revelation 1:19) and before the Tribulation period where the judgements of God are poured out upon the earth (chapter 6-19).

Revelations 4:2-3 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And He that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Who sat upon the throne? Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords. Notice the rainbow (signifying mercy in judgement) completely circling the throne. Even in this end-time period of worldwide judgement, the Lord God will have mercy on those who repent and turn to Him during those seven years. Habakkuk 3:2 O LORD, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.

Now look at the stones mentioned. Which sons do they represent? Which one is mentioned first? The Sardius stone, which Benjamin is represented by - The Son of my sorrow. This was what Jesus was known by when He was on earth (a Man of Sorrows). Though now He is exalted and is at the right hand of the Father - The Son of My Right Hand. The Jasper stone is mentioned next. This represents Reuben and refers to Christ's second coming - "Behold, a Son." For unto us a child is born (Christ's first coming), Unto us a Son is given (His second coming). What color is the rainbow around the throne - around the King? Emerald, the fourth stone - representing Judah, "the praise of the Lord."

Just a neat little known type - that reinforces what is taught in other passages, and shows that everything in the Bible is in there for a purpose, even if we don't always know why ourselves.

January 20th/05
Jerry Bouey

[Jerry]

There are two reasons for me posting this today:

1. To share what I think is a neat type of the Lord Jesus Christ.

2. To get some feedback. Reading a couple commentaries this morning, the authors stated this was God the Father on the throne because He is seen giving the Lamb the scroll in chapter 5.

If it is the Father, why the symbolism from the Old Testament that perfectly fits the type of Christ? This is nothing taken out of context, but shown that these stones specifically represent things about Christ because of how they represented the 12 patriarchs of Israel (the 12 tribes on the High Priest's breastplate).

Could this symbolism represent both the Father and Son in some sense, OR because this is the throne that Christ rules from, represent the Son in chapter 4? Ie. in a picture showing Christ ruling from that throne in Heaven, but also that He has His authority from the Father by the picture in chapter 5?

In chapter 1, the Father is mentioned in verse 4 by the name "Him which is, and which was, and which is to come" (referring to several passages about the Lord God in Isaiah), but then Jesus is also called by that name later in the chapter in verse 8, "...saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come," proving that Jesus is also the Jehovah/Lord God of the Old Testament. The context of these verses show the Trinity and that Jesus is of the same nature or essence as the Father.

I think this is a good type, but I also want to be true to the Scriptures and not wrestle anything out of place. I have passed on that type for 16 years, but now a couple of things I read made me want to scrutinize it more carefully. So I truly am asking for sound input. Thank you.

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Jerry

[Pastor Matt]

Thanks for this, I'll study this out with Scripture this afternoon. 

[Jerry]

I don't remember which commentator I was reading all those years ago that commented on the stones (or colours of the stones) in chapter four, but I just read this in H. A. Ironside's commentary on Revelation:

Remembering that many of the first readers of the Revelation were converted Jews, we might ask, What would these stones suggest to them? Surely every instructed Hebrew would instantly recall that they were the first and last stones in the breastplate of the high priest (Exod. 28:17-20). As these stones bore the names of the tribes of Israel, arranged according to the births of the twelve patriarchs, the one would suggest at once the name Reuben, "Behold a Son," and the other Benjamin, "Son of my right hand." It is Christ enthroned, the Son about to reign in power who is before the Seer's vision. Round about the throne a rainbow, like an emerald, the stone of Judah ("praise") is seen, suggesting the perpetuity of the Noahic covenant, and God's unchanging goodness, despite all of man's failure, folly, and wickedness.

That last part is a great reminder and something to think about, whether we are referring to the Father or the Son.

[John Young]

I'm not quite sure what is being asked but we know God the Father is on the throne and Christ is at his right hand. In Revelation 5 Christ comes out from the midst of the throne and elders and then receives the book from God the Father. Christ will also have a separate earthly throne in the millennial kingdom.

Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Revelation 5:6-7 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Luke 22:29-30 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

Edited February 13, 2022 by John Young

[Jerry]

This is probably the commentary I read in 2005, as I was reading a lot of material from this website (well, the previous website Virgil had with the same name before the current site) and was working with Virgil to proofread and add more material. Oliver B. Greene's commentary on Revelation - here is the link to chapter 4, where I very probably got the original ideas for my study from:

http://www.baptistbiblebelievers.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=JS8owq42kLg%3d&tabid=239&mid=783

He does make an interesting point in his commentary on chapter five, where he says "In verse 7 of our present chapter, we see the Lamb taking the book out of the hand of the One sitting on the throne with Him - the Lord God."

I guess it is easy to think of a throne having one occupant, hence the confusion and my attempt at asking for clarification - but the throne of the universe is ruled by both the Father and the Son - it doesn't have to involve two separate thrones. In Daniel 5, Belshazzar ruled with his father Nebuchadnezzar. They both therefore occupied the same throne (though when the events of chapter 5 happened, Nebuchadnezzar was not present), not two different thrones - so technically the same thing could be possible here.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

In the context of Revelation 4-5 themselves, the following is what we are told about the one who "sat on the throne":

4:2 - "And one sat on the throne."
4:3 - "And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone."
4:3 - "And there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald."
4:5 - "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices."
4:5 - "And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."
4:8-9 - "And the four beasts . . . rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come," giving "glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever."
4:10-11 - "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
5:1 - "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals."
5:7 - "And he [the Lamb of verse 6] came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."
(NOTE: Since the Lamb is clearly presented as taking the book out of the hand of the One who sat upon the throne, the Lamb and the One who sat upon the throne are presented as DIFFERENT individuals.  Now, it should be clear to us that the Lamb, who is also "the Lion of the tribe of Juda" from verse 5, is the Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son.  Thus the One who sat upon the throne, who gave the book to God the Son, cannot also be God the Son, but must contextually be God the Father.)
5:13 - "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."
(NOTE: Again the One who sat on the throne and the Lamb are presented as two DIFFERENT individuals, both equally worthy of eternal glory by all the creation, yet different individuals nevertheless.  Again, since the Lamb is clearly God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the One who sat upon the throne must be God the Father.  Even so, I myself would be compelled to reject any teaching from these chapters that does not recognize this contextual reality.)

[Jerry]

Agreed - but what about the symbolism of the stones? They very clearly present a type of Christ. It could indicate that the throne was shared by Christ. If that is not what it indicates, what is its significance? All the symbolism in the book of Revelation comes from other parts of the Bible. The symbolism of the stones is from Exodus 28, and represents the 12 tribes of Israel.

If it does not symbolically represent the Lord Jesus Christ in His first and second comings (if it did not represent Him, why did God use those specific stones that point to Christ), what does it picture or represent? All the symbolism in Revelation has a meaning that can be traced through the Bible. If I (and Ironside and Greene, and perhaps some other commentators) got that part wrong, what is the true/Biblical definition of those stones as used in chapter four of Revelation?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

The following are questions that I would present in response:

10 hours ago, Jerry said:

Agreed - but what about the symbolism of the stones?

If that is not what it indicates, what is its significance? All the symbolism in the book of Revelation comes from other parts of the Bible.

1.  How do we know that there is ANY symbolism in the color of the stones by which the One who sat on the throne manifested His presence?

(Note: Revelation 4:3 does not indicate that the One who sat on the throne was made up of the two stones, jasper and sardius.  Rather, Revelation 4:3 indicates that His manifestation had the appearance of a color LIKE a jasper and a sardius.)

10 hours ago, Jerry said:

They very clearly present a type of Christ. It could indicate that the throne was shared by Christ. 

2.  How does this fit with the statement of Revelation 4:2, wherein it states, "And ONE sat on the throne"?

(Note: Through Revelation 5:7 & 5:13 we learn that the ONE who sat on the throne is NOT the same as the Lamb, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.  Even so, I do NOT agree that the color of these stones by which the One who sat on the throne manifested Himself "very clearly present a type of Christ."  It is NOT clear to me at all.  In fact, I do NOT see that type at all.)

10 hours ago, Jerry said:

The symbolism of the stones is from Exodus 28, and represents the 12 tribes of Israel.

On 2/12/2022 at 7:51 PM, Jerry said:

Jacob had 12 sons. They are listed in the order of their birth, from Genesis 29 on. The first was Reuben - whose name means "Behold, a son." The fourth was Judah, which means "Praise, or Praise of Jehovah (the LORD)." We know this was the line the Messiah came through - the kingly line. The last (12th) son was named Ben-oni ("Son of my sorrow"), but was changed to Benjamin ("Son of my right hand"). All the others are listed in Genesis as well, and it is easy to determine their meanings from Strong's. But that is not essential to where I am going with this.

Next, let's go to Exodus 28. Here we have the High Priest and his garments. The Breastplate, which was worn over the chest, had 12 stones over his heart - one for each tribe of Israel - according to the order of their birth. See verses 15-21 and 29. So look up the first, fourth, and twelfth ones. Got that?

3.  Where in Exodus 28:15-21, 29 does it say that the names of the twelve tribes were engraved on the twelve stones of the High Priest's breastplate "ACCORDING TO THEIR BIRTH"?

(Note: Yes, it does use this very description in Exodus 28:10 for the engraving of the two onyx stones that would placed upon the shoulder of the High Priest; but where does it specify this for the twelve stones of the breastplate?)

10 hours ago, Jerry said:

The symbolism of the stones is from Exodus 28, and represents the 12 tribes of Israel.

On 2/12/2022 at 7:51 PM, Jerry said:

Jacob had 12 sons. They are listed in the order of their birth, from Genesis 29 on. The first was Reuben - whose name means "Behold, a son." The fourth was Judah, which means "Praise, or Praise of Jehovah (the LORD)." We know this was the line the Messiah came through - the kingly line. The last (12th) son was named Ben-oni ("Son of my sorrow"), but was changed to Benjamin ("Son of my right hand"). All the others are listed in Genesis as well, and it is easy to determine their meanings from Strong's. But that is not essential to where I am going with this.

Next, let's go to Exodus 28. Here we have the High Priest and his garments. The Breastplate, which was worn over the chest, had 12 stones over his heart - one for each tribe of Israel - according to the order of their birth. See verses 15-21 and 29. So look up the first, fourth, and twelfth ones. Got that?

 

Now look at the stones mentioned. Which sons do they represent? Which one is mentioned first? The Sardius stone, which Benjamin is represented by - The Son of my sorrow. This was what Jesus was known by when He was on earth (a Man of Sorrows). Though now He is exalted and is at the right hand of the Father - The Son of My Right Hand. The Jasper stone is mentioned next. This represents Reuben and refers to Christ's second coming - "Behold, a Son." For unto us a child is born (Christ's first coming), Unto us a Son is given (His second coming). What color is the rainbow around the throne - around the King? Emerald, the fourth stone - representing Judah, "the praise of the Lord."

For this question (and for the sake of the argument) I shall grant that the stones of the High Priest's breastplate were engraved with the twelve tribes of Israel "according to the order of their birth" (which may indeed be implied by the statement of Exodus 28:21, "Every one with is name shall they be according to the twelve tribes," in relation to the specific contextual statement of Exodus 28:10, "According to their birth").

4.  Actually, the order of the stones as given in Revelation 4:3 is NOT the sardius first and then the jasper, but is the other way around, the jasper first and then the sardius; so, how does this affect your representation of their symbolism?

(Note: IF the two stone-colors of Revelation 4:3 actually do represent the stones of the High Priest's breastplate from Exodus 28, and IF the children of Israel are engraved on those stones in the order of their birth, then the two stone colors of Revelation 4:3 would represent Benjamin first (the jasper stone color) and Reuben second (the sardius stone color).  Taking up the meaning of those names, this would represent "The Son of My Right Hand" first and "Behold, a Son" second.  Now, IF the meaning of those names are symbolic of Christ in some manner, I would contend that "The Son of My Right Hand" represents Christ's exaltation (not His Second Coming), wherein He was exalted to the right hand of the Father, and that "Behold, a Son" would represent Christ's first coming, wherein the Father gave His Son for the salvation of sinners.  Yet IF this symbolism IS intended, the order of the symbolism is opposite the order of the historical reality; so, we may further ask what is the meaning of this altered order?)

11 hours ago, Jerry said:

If that is not what it indicates, what is its significance? All the symbolism in the book of Revelation comes from other parts of the Bible. The symbolism of the stones is from Exodus 28, and represents the 12 tribes of Israel.

If it does not symbolically represent the Lord Jesus Christ in His first and second comings (if it did not represent Him, why did God use those specific stones that point to Christ), what does it picture or represent? All the symbolism in Revelation has a meaning that can be traced through the Bible. If I (and Ironside and Greene, and perhaps some other commentators) got that part wrong, what is the true/Biblical definition of those stones as used in chapter four of Revelation?

 5.  Why would we not keep all of the references of the jasper stone and of the sardius stone throughout the book of the Revelation TOGETHER in any kind of meaning that they may represent?

(Note:  Revelation 4:3 -- "And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald."  Revelation 21:11 -- "HAVING THE GLORY OF GOD: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal."  Revelation 21:18 -- "And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass."  Revelation 21:19-20 -- "And the voundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.  The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; the firth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst."  Even so, IF I were to seek some symbolism in the various references to jasper throughout the book of the Revelation, at present I would contend that jasper represents "THE GLORY OF GOD."  As far as the sardius and the emerald, at the present time I have no specific symbolism thoughts.  On the other hand, if I sought after symbolism, the question for me would be -- What is the symbolism of these COLORS (not of the stones themselves) in relation to God the Father?)

 

[Jerry]

To answer one question you asked, here is where it indicates the order of the stones was according to their birth order:

Exodus 28:9-10 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel: Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.

Exodus 39:10-14 And they set in it four rows of stones: the first row was a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this was the first row. And the second row, an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row, a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row, a beryl, an onyx, and a jasper: they were inclosed in ouches of gold in their inclosings. And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

Question #4, why the order was reversed. The following is from Greene's book, linked above, pages 5-6:

In the fourth chapter of Revelation, Jesus is described as a Jasper and a Sardine stone. The Jasper stone was clear - clear as crystal. The Sardine (or Sardius) was blood-red . . . the Bloody stone.

In Exodus 28, we read of these stones on the breastplate of the high priest. The Sardius. (the blood-red) stone having to do with Reuben is mentioned first, and the Jasper stone last. Revelation 4 speaks first of the Jasper stone - the clear white stone of Benjamin. This is not to be taken lightly. There is a definite reason for reversing of the stones, putting the first last, and the last first.

The Sardius was blood-red, speaking of the sacrifice of blood, pointing to the Cross and the first coming of Jesus to shed His blood for the remission of sin. The name is derived from two Hebrew words meaning “behold the Son.” It pointed to the Person of whom John the Baptist said, “Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). It also tells us that He (the Lord Jesus) was the first born of every creature, and the first begotten - the ONLY begotten - Son of God (John 3:16).

The Jasper, the last stone in the Old Testament breastplate, represented Benjamin. This was a clear stone, speaking of total victory. On the Jasper stone Was Benjamin’s name, which is a combination of two Hebrew words (ben and jamin), so scholars tell us, meaning “the son of my right hand” . . . or, as one authority puts it, “the son of my power.” The first and the last stones pointed forward to the first and second coming of the Great High Priest - none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, here in Revelation 4, the order of the stones is reversed. John the Beloved sees Him (Jesus) first as the Jasper, and second as the Sardius. The reason is clear: In the Old Testament the saints looked forward to the day when the Lamb would come. They looked forward to the cross, and therefore saw the Sardius . . . the Blood-red stone . . . first. They looked beyond that and saw the Jasper, the clear white stone representing His power and His rule at His second coming to set up the kingdom. However, when John had the experience we are now studying, he was on this side of Calvary and the Rapture, and was looking back. John saw, first of all, the Jasper stone, the clear one - and then the red stone, the Cross and sacrifice.

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

On the other hand, if I sought after symbolism, the question for me would be -- What is the symbolism of these COLORS (not of the stones themselves) in relation to God the Father?)

Yes, hence part of the reason for this thread. I have already established how they picture Christ, even if you don't agree that applies in chapter four. If the symbolism in chapter four is not intended to picture Christ, yes, how does it picture the Father? I don't know and I welcome any input - though one thing I will disagree with: the symbolism is there, whether it pictures the Father in some way or only the Son is to be determined, but I cannot agree that there is no attempted symbolism or picture here.

[Jerry]

I am doing my best now to be diligent and check all the resources I have available to see which ones may offer further insight into this passage, specifically the stones or the colours. Both Warren Wiersbe and J. Vernon McGee also relate the stones to the breastplate of the high priest and mention the three sons of Israel that I also pointed out. It is interesting that the first mention of each of those three specific stones in Scripture is in Exodus 28. Now this does not mean my position is right, it does mean others connected them and their symbolism in some way to the stones on the breastplate.

J. Vernon Mcgee stated this in his Thru The Bible Commentary. I bolded a part I thought was relevant and interesting - though I have never heard anyone connect all three members of the Trinity to God's rule over the earth/mankind (only the Father and the Son).

All that we see here is color, beautiful color like precious stones. We do not get a picture of God at all—He never has been photographed. Our attention is directed to the One who is seated on the throne. Although He is God the Father, we should understand this to be the throne of the triune God. Nevertheless, the three persons of the Trinity are distinguished: (1) God the Holy Spirit in verses 2 and 5; (2) God the Father here in verse 3; and (3) God the Son in verse 5 of chapter 5. What we have before us here is the Trinity upon the throne.

John could distinguish no form of a person on the throne, only the brilliance and brightness of precious stones.

 

“And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper.” The jasper stone was the last stone identified in the breastplate of the high priest (see Exod. 28:20). It was first in the foundation of the New Jerusalem and also the first seen in the wall of the New Jerusalem (see Rev. 21:18–19). It was a many-colored stone with purple predominating. Some identify it with a diamond. It was in the breastplate of the high priest of Israel, representing little Benjamin whom Jacob called “the son of my right hand.” Perhaps this speaks of Christ as He ascended and took His place at the right hand of the Father.

The “sardine stone” is the sixth stone in the foundation of the New Jerusalem (see Rev. 21:20). Pliny says it was discovered in Sardis from which it derived its name. In color it was a fiery red. The sardine stone was the first stone in the breastplate of the high priest, representing the tribe of Reuben, the first-born of Jacob. And Christ is the Son of God, the firstborn from the dead.

[Jerry]

John Gill also mentions the sons of Israel as well.

Yes, it is the Father in chapter four - but we know that Christ will rule from that throne shortly - the scene is being set in those chapters (4-5). Could the colours represent things about the Father AND the Son? Ie. a twofold purpose or picture? Not in order, but multiple commentators refer to the glory, majesty, justice, mercy, etc. of the Lord God being pictured by those colours/stones. Could they also represent the person who is soon to sit and rule from that throne once the events of the Tribulation are set in motion? Yes, the Father is on the throne in ch 4, but shortly the Son will be ruling from that throne - so to me it seems possible to have a twofold purpose for what is pictured. There are multiple commentators that mention these colours represent (not in order) the deity and humanity of Christ, His blood shed, His purity, etc. Both sides of these symbols (ie. representing the Lord God in general or the Father and representing the Son) are presented throughout the Bible. It is not unreasonable to think they would be represented here as well.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

3 hours ago, Jerry said:

To answer one question you asked, here is where it indicates the order of the stones was according to their birth order:

Exodus 28:9-10 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel: Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.

Exodus 39:10-14 And they set in it four rows of stones: the first row was a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this was the first row. And the second row, an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row, a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row, a beryl, an onyx, and a jasper: they were inclosed in ouches of gold in their inclosings. And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

For precision:

Exodus 28:9-10 specifically is talking about the two onyx stones that were placed upon the high priest's shoulders, not about the twelve gemstones that were placed upon the high priest's breastplate.  Thus it is possible that the phrase at the end of Exodus 28:14 & 39:14 ("according to the twelve tribes") was contextually intended to communicate the same.  However, the phrase "according to the twelve tribes" is NOT precisely the same as the phrase "according to their BIRTH."

In fact, I did indicate this possibility in my earlier posting, as follows:

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

3.  Where in Exodus 28:15-21, 29 does it say that the names of the twelve tribes were engraved on the twelve stones of the High Priest's breastplate "ACCORDING TO THEIR BIRTH"?

(Note: Yes, it does use this very description in Exodus 28:10 for the engraving of the two onyx stones that would placed upon the shoulder of the High Priest; but where does it specify this for the twelve stones of the breastplate?)

For this question (and for the sake of the argument) I shall grant that the stones of the High Priest's breastplate were engraved with the twelve tribes of Israel "according to the order of their birth" (which may indeed be implied by the statement of Exodus 28:21, "Every one with is name shall they be according to the twelve tribes," in relation to the specific contextual statement of Exodus 28:10, "According to their birth"). (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, Jerry said:

All that we see here is color, beautiful color like precious stones. We do not get a picture of God at all—He never has been photographed. Our attention is directed to the One who is seated on the throne. Although He is God the Father, we should understand this to be the throne of the triune God. Nevertheless, the three persons of the Trinity are distinguished: (1) God the Holy Spirit in verses 2 and 5; (2) God the Father here in verse 3; and (3) God the Son in verse 5 of chapter 5. What we have before us here is the Trinity upon the throne.

Herein I wish to examine the precision of Mcgee's statements above.

1.  Correct, what is presented in Revelation 4:3 is not a specific form, but is "beautiful color like precious stones."  Yet it is still clear to John that there IS an individual sitting on the throne; for he reported in verse 2, "And, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and ONE SAT ON THE THRONE."  John under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit was NOT uncertain about this.  There was indeed ONE sitting on that heavenly throne; and He is presented as ONE, not as three.

2.  Correct, the ONE sitting on that heavenly throne IS God the Father, as per the whole context of Revelation 4-5.

3.  Not precisely correct; for although God the Holy Spirit is certainly represented in relation to that heavenly throne, He is NOT represented in verse 5 as being upon the throne, but as being before (at the foot of) the throne.

4.  Correct, the three Persons of the eternal Godhead are indeed DISTINGUISHED throughout Revelation 4-5.

5.  Correct, God the Holy Spirit is represented in Revelation 4:5 by the seven lamps of burning fire before the throne.

6.  Correct, God the Father is the ONE represented in Revelation 4:3 as the ONE sitting on the throne; and He continues to be the ONE represented throughout the entire two chapters as the ONE sitting on the throne.

7.  Correct, God the Son is not represented in this heavenly scene until Revelation 5:5-6; but then He is represented in the form of a Lamb throughout Revelation 5:6-13.

8.  Not precisely correct; for although each member of the triune Godhead IS represented in the heavenly scene of Revelation 4-5, neither God the Son nor God the Holy Spirit are ever represented as being UPON the throne.

From my perspective and understanding of the context throughout Revelation 4-5, the attempt to make the ONE sitting on the throne somewhat nebulous is an attempt to place God the Son on the throne, when in fact the context throughout places God the Father on the throne.  Thus I would contend that it is a Biblical mistake to place one Person of the Godhead on that heavenly throne, when the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures place a different Person of the Godhead on that heavenly throne.  What God's Holy Word presents precisely is presented for a reason, and we ought not seek to change it in any way.

The ONE sitting on that heavenly throne is God the Father.
The colors that are presented reveal something about God the Father.
We must discern what they teach about God the Father.

Concerning the jasper color clear as crystal, I would contend from Revelation 21:11 that it represents the GLORY of God the Father.

Concerning the sardius color and the emerald color, I am not yet sure.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:48 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

The ONE sitting on that heavenly throne is God the Father.
The colors that are presented reveal something about God the Father.
We must discern what they teach about God the Father.

Concerning the jasper color clear as crystal, I would contend from Revelation 21:11 that it represents the GLORY of God the Father.

Concerning the sardius color and the emerald color, I am not yet sure.

The following post is NOT intended to be argumentative or to carry forward my above disagreement any further.  Rather, it is intended to express some of my ponderings on this subject; for my ponderings have been engaged more highly since this discussion began.  

First, I have lately been pondering more on what that heavenly scene would have looked like:

1.  It seems that a heavenly throne was at the very center of this heavenly scene, and the One sitting upon that throne would have been the central focus of the scene. (See 4:2)

2.  Concerning the colors of 4:3, I wish to present my present ponderings on them after the rest of the scene has been formulated.

3.  Round about this heavenly throne in what I imagine was a half-circle formation were twenty-four seats, with twenty-four elders sitting upon those seats, each wearing all white raiment and a gold crown upon their heads. (See 4:4)  Based upon how these twenty-four elders respond later toward the One sitting upon the throne, I image that these twenty-four elders sat facing toward that central heavenly throne. (See 4:9-11)

4.  Along with the central colors of the One sitting on the throne and of the rainbow around the throne, there proceeded forth from that central heavenly throne lightning flashes and thundering sounds and vocal speech. (See 4:5a)

5.  At the very foot of that central heavenly throne were seven lamps of burning fire (possibly ancient Jewish style lamps, or possibly just the appearance of burning fire itself), which are not simply intended to represent, but are presented as actually being the seven-fold Holy Spirit of God. (See 4:5b) (Because these seven burning fires are the Holy Spirit, I presently lean toward there being seven burning flames without any specific lamps, that it was not seven lamps which were burning with fire, but that it was seven burning fires which were themselves the lamps, not lamps with fire, but lamps of fire.)

6.  On the ground at the front of that central heavenly throne (possibly between the throne and the twenty-four seats of the twenty-four elders??), there was a sea of glass that shined and sparkled like crystal. (see 4:6a)

7.  Around that central heavenly throne in the midst of it (that is -- within the throne's immediate "bubble") were the four seraphim-angels continually shouting forth the message, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." (See 4:6b-8)

8.  Then this heavenly scene shifts slighty; for John sees that as the seraphim-angels shout forth their message of glory and honor and thanks to the One sitting on the throne, the twenty-four elders fall from their seats to bow on their faces in worship of the One sitting on the throne, casting their crowns before the foot of the throne. (See 4:9-11)

9.  Then this heavenly scene shifts again; for John sees a book in the right hand of the One sitting on the throne, a book (probably a scroll-book) written on both sides, inside and outside, and sealed with seven seals.  Furthermore, a mighty angel stands forth to ask in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof?"  Yet initially no one is found worthy anywhere throughout the creation, and John weeps over this matter. (See 5:1-4)

10.  However, then one of the twenty-four elders comforts John, indicating that the Lion of the tribe Juda has indeed prevailed to open the book and loose the seals thereof.  Then the heavenly scene shifts again as an individual appears in the midst of the seraphim-angels and in the midst of the central heavenly throne, not sitting upon the throne, but standing (I imagine) right in front of the throne (within the "bubble" of the throne).  This individual bears the appearance of "a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God (the seven-fold Holy Spirit of God) sent forth into all the earth." (See 5:5-6)

11.  This heavenly Lamb (clearly God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ) takes the book from the right hand of the One sitting on the throne.  When He does this, the four seraphim-angels and the twenty-four elders all fall down upon their knees in worship of Him, holding harps and golden perfume vials containing the prayers of the saints, and singing a song of praise and thanksgiving unto the Lamb. (See 5:7-10)

12.  Following this song of praise and worship unto the Lamb by the seraphim-angels and twenty-four elders, a multitude of righteous angels, and the four seraphim-angels, and the twenty-four elders add a further shout of glorious praise unto the Lamb. (See 5:11-12)

13.  Finally, the scene concludes with every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea proclaiming blessing and praise unto the One sitting upon the throne and unto the Lamb standing in the midst of the throne. (See 5:13-14)

Second, I have been pondering more about the colors that are described concerning the One sitting upon that central heavenly throne:

1.  Best I can discern from both the Greek and the English construction, Revelation 4:3 presents the jasper and the sardine stone, not as two separate stones, but as two colors merged in relation to a single stone.  Best I can discern, it is not the color of a jasper stone and of a sardine stone (the plurality of two stones), being distinctly separate from one another.  Rather, it is the color of a jasper and a sardine stone (a singular stone), being merged and mixed together.  For us the most common color of jasper is a shade of red; but jasper can come in various colors, such as red, yellow, brown, and blue (more rarely).  Jasper colors can also include white, black, gray, and orange, and can even come in a somewhat clear coloring.  Since Revelation 21:11 references "a jasper stone, clear as crystal," I would lean toward this being the same for Revelation 4:3.  The sardius color is a shade of red.  Thus I would image that the coloring of the One sitting on that central heavenly throne was the shining and sparkling shades of crystalline jasper and reddish sardius mixed together in their brightly shining sparkles.  As to the symbolism of this singular mixture and merging of these two shining and sparkling colors, I would consider this to be the representation of the Glory of God.  I would take this from the description of Revelation 21:11, wherein the New Jerusalem is described as "having the GLORY OF GOD: and her LIGHT was like unto A STONE most precious, eve like A JASPER STONE, CLEAR AS CRYSTAL."  This verse appears to connect the Glory of God with this crystalline jasper color.

2.  On the other hand, the rainbow round about that central heavenly throne is described as being "in sight like unto an emerald."  Since the color of emerald is some varying shade of green, I image that this rainbow (color halo around the throne) would be some vivid sparkling shade of green.  Since the primary symbolism of green in Scripture seems to be that of life and lively health (due to the color's connection to healthy vegetation), I would presently lean toward the symbolism of this emerald color to be that of God the Father's eternal reality and of His life-giving grace.  Because we are sinful beings, the glory of God as rooted in His holiness would bring us to a place of condemnation, wrath, and death.  However, without tempering His holiness in any manner, the Lord our God desires to present Himself as a God of life and grace.  Thus the symbolism of the emerald rainbow around the crystalline jasper and reddish sardius of God's glorious manifestation upon the heavenly throne.

3.  Maybe there is a connection between the description of Revelation 4:3 and the declaration of Revelation 4:8:

"Like a jasper and a sardine stone" -- "Holy, holy, holy" -- God the Father's glorious holiness
"The throne" -- "Lord God Almighty" -- God the Father's sovereign authority
"Like unto an emerald" -- "which was, and is, and is to come" -- God the Father's eternal reality
          or
"Like unto an emerald" -- "For thou hast created all things . . . ." (4:11) -- God the Father's creative pleasure

Edited February 18, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle