Questions about the biblical basis for KJVO

[Annie]

Seth, would you say that the living Word that became flesh and died on the cross is synonymous with the written word of God? Does Jesus Christ = the KJV? If you say yes, then you serve a different Jesus than I do. I worship Jesus, but I do not worship the Bible. Equating the words of God with the living Word (Jesus Christ) is idolatry, plain and simple.

[Guest Guest]

Seth, would you say that the living Word that became flesh and died on the cross is synonymous with the written word of God? Does Jesus Christ = the KJV? If you say yes, then you serve a different Jesus than I do. I worship Jesus, but I do not worship the Bible. Equating the words of God with the living Word (Jesus Christ) is idolatry, plain and simple.

The Bible is the written, revealed, Word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. You cannot separate the written, revealed, Word of God from his physical person any more than you could separate my physical person from my words. The Bible and the person of Christ are different parts of the same character and they agree in one. If you worship God you will believe his words for they are of him. God has left the Christian two very similiar things to guide his life, the Word and the Spirit. Without the Word of God you could have no faith. The bible could be said to be the Holy Spirit on paper. Not physically, but the Spirit is not physical.

"Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

"1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son."

"John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

[Guest Guest]

And so it begins...

And, so it should have ended, a long time ago! :thumb

candlelight

[Annie]

The Bible is the written, revealed, Word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. You cannot separate the written, revealed, Word of God from his physical person any more than you could separate my physical person from my words.

But I can separate your physical person from your words, because they are two different entities; they are not of the same essence. Words are intangible things that proceed out of your mouth, but they are not YOU. The words that I see written in your post above are not "Seth Doty." They are "Seth Doty's words." There is a difference.

"The Word" is a metaphor for Jesus Christ, as is "The Good Shepherd," "The Living Water," "The Light of the World," and "The Door." When we read these metaphors, we understand that they are telling us something about Jesus...but we don't think that Jesus is literally a shepherd, made of water, a literal light that is shining over the world, or a literal door. In the same way, Jesus is not "a word," as in a literal written word (or words). Did he speak words? Yes! But is He the same as those words? No.

If you worship God you will believe his words for they are of him.

I completely agree with the above statement.

God has left the Christian two very similiar things to guide his life, the Word and the Spirit. Without the Word of God you could have no faith. The bible could be said to be the Holy Spirit on paper. Not physically, but the Spirit is not physical.

Frankly, this statement leaves me confused. I'm not sure in what context you're using the term "Word." Yes, we cannot become "Christians" without "Christ" the living Word. Yes, we need God's Word, the Scripture, to guide our lives. Yes, the Holy Spirit helps us to understand Scripture as we read it and meditate on it. But none of these truths indicate that Christ the Living Word is the same thing as the Bible, God's written Word.

"Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Amen. We hear about how to come to saving faith by hearing the word of God...His written/spoken words. This "word" is obviously not referring to Jesus, the living Word. If "word" is referring to a member of the Godhead (which I don't believe it is), it would be the Holy Spirit, since He's the One we "hear" from in our hearts.

"1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son."

Amen.

"John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Amen again...I'm not sure what these last two verses have to do with proving that the Living Word (Christ) is the same entity as the written word of God.

[John81]

With all due respect, John...the average 3rd grader can comprehend the KJV. I was raised (with the exception of 7th and 8th grade) in the public school system. I can understand the KJV perfectly, and so can my husband...he finished his last 4 years in public school.

What I am finding on this site...is IFB's that were raised with the KJV 1611 AV "only" truth...doubting the validity of the Bible. Why after all these years is there confusion? :puzzled: Well, my opinion...is that Satan is working in the minds of Christians harder than ever. Satan even quoted the KJV to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguraion in...Matthew 4:6...And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, HE SHALL GIVE HIS ANGELS CHARGE CONCERNING THEE: and IN THEIR HANDS THEY SHALL BEAR THEE UP, LEST AT ANY TIME THOU DASH THY FOOT AGAINST A STONE. KJV 1611 AV. The Devil is producing false Christiany is all. And, he is doing it directly through God's word...the KJV.

candlelight

I'm very pleased you and your husband understand the KJB. I've known scores of high school graduates that can barely read simply written modern day English. I've been a GED tutor and I've tutored university students who had a high school diploma yet couldn't read much beyond a "Dick and Jane" level.

There is a reason most magazines are written at about a 6th grade level and that's because millions across America have very poor reading skills. Not only are they incapable of reading well, they also have a very limited vocabulary. When they come across words they are not familiar with their brains basically shut off in frustration. They never learned out to decode new words and their vocabulary is so limited they can't even begin to attempt to fathom what the new word means with the context of the sentence.

I've witnessed people graduating from college with their BA degree who couldn't even come close to reading at a high school level.

[John81]

Hi Annie...I just pull out an old Webster's Dictionary if I need clarification. To me...all the other versions do' date=' is add confusion to my mind. Also, when I read Christian books "I eat the watermellon, and spit out the seeds". I don't need any "proof" on the KJV, because the "proof" is in my heart...not, in the minds of men. Hebrews 10:22-23...Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) KJV.

candlelight

This line of yours fits my belief in this matter:

"I don't need any "proof" on the KJV, because the "proof" is in my heart..."

I firmly belive the Lord led me to the KJB and the Holy Ghost has testified to this in my life.

[Guest Guest]

I'm very pleased you and your husband understand the KJB. I've known scores of high school graduates that can barely read simply written modern day English. I've been a GED tutor and I've tutored university students who had a high school diploma yet couldn't read much beyond a "Dick and Jane" level.

There is a reason most magazines are written at about a 6th grade level and that's because millions across America have very poor reading skills. Not only are they incapable of reading well, they also have a very limited vocabulary. When they come across words they are not familiar with their brains basically shut off in frustration. They never learned out to decode new words and their vocabulary is so limited they can't even begin to attempt to fathom what the new word means with the context of the sentence.

I've witnessed people graduating from college with their BA degree who couldn't even come close to reading at a high school level.

Hi John! Again, I will add, that both my hubby and I have been blessed with a good, "solid" public school education. Unforunetly, the only drawback to that...was being raised w/o God in the public school system. What a shame! :sad And, had I been saved earlier in life...I would have put my (our) son in Christian school (although, I have an un-saved ex-hubby to deal with). And, he was raised in the public schools, as well. The public school system up north is very progressive in your affluent suburbs...however, they are sadly leading children astray with all kinds of ridiculous theories about where humans come from, and where they will go after they die. This is the "most" tragic thing of all!

It is very sad that there are so many people in the world who can't read. I witnessed this while teaching in the Cleveland Municipal School District. I will have to go with what my fellow African American teachers have said about that, "there is no home-training". And, that exists in all cultures. This is a great loss to our nation...as these children are our future!

candlelight

[Guest Guest]

This line of yours fits my belief in this matter:

"I don't need any "proof" on the KJV, because the "proof" is in my heart..."

I firmly belive the Lord led me to the KJB and the Holy Ghost has testified to this in my life.

candlelight

[Guest Guest]

But I can separate your physical person from your words, because they are two different entities; they are not of the same essence. Words are intangible things that proceed out of your mouth, but they are not YOU. The words that I see written in your post above are not "Seth Doty." They are "Seth Doty's words." There is a difference.

Not true. The words, spoken or written, are part of the being. They are intimately connected to the heart of the individual. Don't get stuck on "intangible". There is more to a life than what you can see. The Spirit is not tangible, yet it is very much part of the being. Remember John 3:3-12.

It is written:

"John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

"Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."

"Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man."

[Guest Guest]

Then we should learn and study the bible in its original text which I am sorry is not the 1611 KJV.

[Guest Guest]

Then we should learn and study the bible in its original text which I am sorry is not the 1611 KJV.

The "original text" does not exist.

[Guest Guest]

The "original text" does not exist.

Thank you...KJB_Princess! :smile

candlelight

[Annie]

Seth, according to your definition, all words spoken by a person are part of their being. I'm not seeing this as true (and even if it were true, I honestly don't see what this has to do with the KJVO debate). If what you are saying is true, then the words someone spoke as an unbeliever (as in cursing God, etc.) are still a part of their being. (??) I totally agree with the fact that words reveal a person's heart, but words ARE not equal to the person's heart.

[Guest Guest]

Most of the people who I know that can't understand the KJV are educated above their own intelligence.

Speer...I must have missed this. YES!!!

candlelight

[Guest Guest]

Seth, according to your definition, all words spoken by a person are part of their being.

Correct, except it isn't "my" definition, it is scriptural. I assume you can agree that the heart and Spirit are part of the being. We already established with scripture that spoken words come from the heart. We also established that the words Jesus spoke were Spirit, what Spirit would that be if not his own Spirit?

I'm not seeing this as true (and even if it were true, I honestly don't see what this has to do with the KJVO debate).

God spoke the scriptures. They are a part of him just as my words are a part of me. They can not fail or pass away. It has everything to do with the issue.

If what you are saying is true, then the words someone spoke as an unbeliever (as in cursing God, etc.) are still a part of their being.

Incorrect. If you are saved you have a new heart and a new Spirit. If you didn't have that your right, that sin would still be part of your being and you would go to hell.

"2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

I totally agree with the fact that words reveal a person's heart, but words ARE not equal to the person's heart.

I believe scripture teaches that words come out of the heart and thus are part of it. If you feel otherwise define the difference with scripture.

The point of all this is to demonstrate that the Bible, the Word of God, is part of himself. That is why in the NT Jesus states that the scripture cannot be broken. It is part of him. You cannot believe God is perfect without believing scripture is perfect. If you believe "Gods Word" originally was perfect but that he has allowed that perfection to be lost(which is what this usually boils down too), so that his people must stumble and guess at the truth, you don't understand the scriptures nor the power and mind of God.

"Psalm 119:161 Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word."

Do you stand in awe of the bible or do you pick and choose what you believe is his Word?

It is written:

"John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Jesus Christ is going to use the scripture to judge the world. Do you think that as the righteous judge God would allow fallen men to present the world with a imperfect copy of his will while allowing the original perfect Word to become unavailable?

It is written:

"Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

There is simply no way to get the theory that the Word of God is somewhere but "lost" out of that without wresting the scripture. If the pure Word is lost(as some of the translators for all the MV's claim) it would be a pointless promise to make. God does not make pointless promises.