Calvinism or Arminianism? How do you answer?

[Iconoclast]

On 5/22/2020 at 2:56 PM, heartstrings said:

It's not what we think but what the Bible says. The Bible says that "God so loved the world" not some of the world. The Bible says that "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked". The Bible says that "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". The Bible documents that people can hear the Gospel, be convicted, and then reject it of their own free will. And God has documented that He loves people who He knows will reject Him. I can give you more but I'm kind of busy right now.

Does Jn 3:15-18 say the whole world will be saved? or is it everyone  believing ?

 

God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, nevertheless they will go into second death.

God is certainly willing that many perish, He says so in Mt7: 

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Jerry]

BOTH Calvinism AND Arminianism ARE heresy as they both contradict the Bible. On some doctrines and issues, the solution is somewhere in the middle, and on some other issues they are nowhere close to the truth. Better to steer clear of both sets of doctrine and search the Scriptures themselves, without trying to force each passage into a particular box.

If I understand what was posted in a thread or two before mine (I skimmed over it and did not read it all), election and predestination have nothing to do with us being or becoming saved - but have to do with being God's people once we have trusted the Saviour, and in having an inheritance and certain things predestined to happen to us (like being conformed to the image of Christ and having a home in Heaven), not being predestined to Heaven or Hell or being predestined to be saved or lost.

[Iconoclast]

On 5/22/2020 at 6:21 PM, Scott Lyons said:

Calvinism and Arminianism are both heresy because they backload works into the gospel! Anyone preaching Calvinism or Arminianism is accursed and must be marked and avoided as per Romans 16:17-18! Calvinism and Arminianism can not save and will not save!!!

Sorry, but this is just not so.

Where are you getting such ideas?

Can you describe these teachings? can you show or demonstrate any of these claims?

You are sweeping aside millions of christian brothers???

 

[Jerry]

3 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

God is certainly willing that many perish, He says so in Mt7: 

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You are making the Bible contradict itself. 2 Peter 3:9 says He is not willing that any perish - but He does give everyone the choice to receive or reject the truth. Matthew 7 is not stating God's "will" (ie His desire) but stating what is going to happen eventually.

[Iconoclast]

6 minutes ago, mbkjpreacher said:

Anyone can claim the title Biblicist, but he has to prove it.  Spurgeon is a Baptist and yet you have to prove that he is right in all aspects of beliefs.  To be a Biblicist does not mean you have to take man or any human writing as the basis of your beliefs but rely solely on the Bible as the basis of your beliefs. 

Hello Mb, 

I find many claim that title, but fail to own up to it.

1 minute ago, Jerry said:

You are making the Bible contradict itself. 2 Peter 3:9 says He is not willing that any perish - but He does give everyone the choice to receive or reject the truth. Matthew 7 is not stating God's "will" (ie His desire) but stating what is going to happen eventually.

Hello Jerry, 

Thank you for your response.

I do not believe the bible has any contradictions.

A careful examination of 2Pet 3 shows that everyone peter is speaking of will be saved.

He contrasts those who scoff and Mock, with those God is saving.

[Jerry]

Um, what Bible are you reading? Neither the Bible, nor that passage specifically, teach what you just said.

The Bible teaches that the Lord God provided salvation for the whole world, Jesus paid the penalty for the whole world, but salvation only comes through repentance and faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Many will not accept that, will reject the Saviour, His Word, His Gospel, and therefore WILL perish. God's desire is that they turn from their sins to the Saviour, but He will not force anyone to be saved.

[Iconoclast]

On 6/17/2020 at 6:09 PM, SureWord said:

A question I always had about Calvinism is what about babies who die? If we are predestined does that mean there are babies in hell? Or do only predestined babies die as I had one Calivinist suggest?

From the 1689 confession of faith;

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

[Jerry]

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[Iconoclast]

On 6/17/2020 at 4:30 PM, Scott Lyons said:

Predestination has nothing to do with God predetermining who goes to heaven or who goes to hell! It has nothing to do with salvation at all! It is about believers being predestined for adoption, for an inheritance, and to be conformed into the image of Christ. All future events. Calvinism is heresy and must be rejected!!!

Hello Scott,

Consider this which many refer to as the golden Chain of redemption;Rom8;

²⁹ For whom he did foreknow,

he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

³⁰ Moreover whom he did predestinate,

them he also called: and whom he called,

them he also justified:

and whom he justified,

them he also glorified.

 

The action is on God's part, the whom, and them, are the objects of God's action.

[Jerry]

Good thing I am not a Calvinist, nor forced to believe in some specific creed. The Bible is my source of truth, not some creed or ancient preachers/church. If a creed, a preacher, a church, a denomination, contradicts the Word of God then they should be rejected inasmuch as they do so. If the whole pot is full of poison (ie. if there is death in the pot), then I reject the whole mixed up stew. If it is just a few (especially minor) matters that they are wrong on, then I can reject those issues and points and still glean from them, but if their whole pottage is filled with error, I am going to look for solid meat elsewhere. 

Yup, those He did foreknow, He predestined to certain things. Foreknew what? Foreknew that they would receive the Saviour, believe the Gospel, trust in the Lord. Those that did so are predestined to be made like Christ, predestined to be glorified, predestined to have an inheritance in Christ and a home in Heaven.

[Iconoclast]

On 6/18/2020 at 2:16 PM, Ukulelemike said:

Paul covers this issue quite competently and clearly, in Romans 7:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

The highlighted area seems quite clear to me: The only was someone, particularly a Jew, could be alive without the law, was if, for some reason, the law didn't apply to them. We know Paul grew up a Jew, so the law was his rule of life-how could he have once been alive without it? Only is, as a small child, he had no understanding of it, of right and wrong and sin and punishment. BUT, when the commandment came, when he reached an understanding of it, sin, which had always been [resent in him, but sleeping, of no effect without understanding, revived, gained power over him, and he spiritually died. See, he didn't know lust until he understood that the Law taught Thou shalt not covet.  Sin applies only when we understand right and wrong. 

Hello UK, 

I do not think that is an accurate understanding of the teaching of scripture on this.

All sinned and died in Adam, all are guilty of breaking God's law.

Jesus is the only one not to break God's holy law.

At the white throne Judgment multitudes will be found guilty as law breakers.

That is why missionaries GO, to rescue the perishing...AMEN?

[Jerry]

And how does God call someone? Through the Gospel - which they can either receive or reject.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Iconoclast]

On 6/21/2020 at 8:25 PM, Ukulelemike said:

You can say that as you like, but that is certainly adding to what scripture says. It says just what it says, we need not add man made philosophy to it. They are not elect in Christ, they are in innocence, where there is no law, and sin is not accounted.

No....All sinned and died in Adam.

²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

On 6/23/2020 at 10:21 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Romans 5:18 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Indeed, I must agree that "ALL men" are under judgment to condemnation (yea, condemned already), not due to their own sin, but due to Adam's sin.  However, the very same statement of God's Holy Word ALSO declares that "the free gift" of salvation has come upon (is available to) "ALL men" as well.  Now, if contextually the "all men" phrase in the first half of the verse refers to every single human individual who enters the world, then contextually the "all men" phrase in the second half of the verse would refer to the same - to EVERY SINGLE human individual who enters the world.

Hello pastor Scott,

I think this is not accurate in this way;

All men ever born, sinned and died in Adam...YES. They are in Adam by natural birth.

All that are IN Christ only get there by New birth, being born from above....Spiritual birth....NOT ALL MEN GET THAT.

 

 

[Iconoclast]

On 6/23/2020 at 11:01 AM, Scott Lyons said:

@DaChaser take your heresy of Calvinism elsewhere!

Wow Scott, we can feel the love coming from your keyboard, why such anger?

On 6/23/2020 at 6:22 PM, Scott Lyons said:

Doesn't make it right! The Calvinist's authority is NOT Scripture but IS Calvinism! Calvinists have outsourced their sense-making to "giants of the faith" like Luther, Edwards, Knox, Gill, and even Calvin himself instead of Scripture! Calvinists don't think for themselves and say "well John Knox says, or Calvin Says, or Jonathan Edwards says" instead of saying exactly what Scripture says! I don't care about what those men said. They were all heretics!

You do not seem to have the correct information Scott;

Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures

1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4

[Jerry]

Why are you refuting people's perceived attitudes and random statements from two or more years ago?

Also, there is certainly nothing wrong with calling something like it is - such as calling Calvinism heresy.