Eternal Security Taught In Hebrews 6

[Covenanter]

The thing I see in hebrews 6:4-6 in light of the Greek "metochos" is it is speaking of a saved people. They are said to have partnered with the Holy Ghost. Does the Holy Ghost "partner with" the unsaved? Light has no fellowship with darkness.

Hebrews 6:4 (KJV) 4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 (KJV) 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 (KJV) 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

What we need to look at is verse six. It does not say, "when they shall fall away," but "if." If is not definite.

Notice Paul's words later in that chapter...

Hebrews 6:9 (KJV) 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

The saved will always bear fruit that evidence their Salvation. Hebrews 6 does not teach one can lose ones Salvation. Rather, it teaches Salvation will be evidenced by fruit.

 

We do not know the state of heart of others & sometimes not even our own heart - remember the parable of the sower. There are repeated warnings & encouragements in Hebrews. Those who fall away have a dreadful warning. Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong !

 

¹⁹ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, ²⁰ by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; ²¹ and having an high priest over the house of God; ²² let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. ²³ Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) ²⁴ and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: ²⁵ not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

[wretched]

 

I sat down and wrote out a lengthy response, but after careful consideration, I erased it.

 

I will say this for myself personally (as I can't speak for anyone else), I follow no man or preacher.  To be honest, I don't recall ever hearing a sermon or teaching from any pastor that I've ever had on the subject.  I don't recall ever hearing a sermon or teaching on it from anyone for that matter.  I live in a small town and rural area.  I don't mean this to sound bad, but the majority of the preachers around here just get up and preach a Bible story for the most part...we also have a lot of what I call "Huh Preaching".  If you don't know what that is, the preachers go "HUH!" a lot while preaching.  Such as...

 

"Now when Jesus, HUH!...went to the cross, HUH!...he was dying for the sins of the world, HUH!

 

Again, I'm not mocking or poking fun at them...just stating a fact.  That style preaching is very popular here, and there are folks here who think you're not really a preacher if you don't HUH! while you preach.  

 

All of that to say this...I didn't get this teaching from any man.  I got it from studying God's word.  

 

I got it from seeing that man is sinful, that our righteousnesses are as filthy rags in God's sight (and I won't mention what those filthy rags are).  

 

I got it from seeing that the law was given to show man that he's a sinner...not to save him...and the law was given in the Old Testament.  

 

I got it from seeing that the only promises for Israel's obedience to the law were PHYSICAL promises...not spiritual salvation.  

 

I got it from seeing that God's grace was shed on man in the early parts through to the end of the Bible.

 

I got it from seeing that nothing man can do by way of works can justify him in God's sight...NOTHING.

 

I got it from seeing that to try to keep the law was futile for man, and would only condemn him.

 

I could go on, but I'll stop now.  There is nothing in the Old Testament that says a man had to add works to faith in order to be saved, and there is nothing in Revelation saying that either.  

 

Wretched, everything that you have accused me of (and others who hold the view that works have never, do not, and will never have a part in salvation)...everything that you've accused us of...I look at your post and AV's posts, and I think the same thing about that line of thinking that you hold, and as you said about our view, I say the same about yours...you can say it over and over, but that doesn't make it truth.  In my view, one has to read between the lines an awful lot to arrive at those conclusions...and there's nothing between the lines brother.

 

The Bible is clear...works can not save anyone...mixed with faith or not...it's the faith that saves. 

 

One last thing in regards to Old Testament and Tribulation salvation being accompanied by works...brother, the same can be said of us today.

 

Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

Sounds an awful lot like we Christians today ought to be performing works, doesn't it?  

 

I agree that Old Testament salvation was accompanied by works, and Tribulation salvation will be accompanied by works...just as our salvation is accompanied by works today.  Not to be saved, but because one is saved.

 

 

Although my breath is offensive, I meant no offense NN. No accusations, just observations. And for the record I have never once meant faith plus works- I have stated faith demonstrated by works, there is a definitive difference. Even the jewish believers in the NT (who knew the OT so very well) had to have the Gospel explained this way

 

I have tried to get folks to think about the difference serving God was in the OT to what it is today. There was no regeneration of the Spirit in the OT no matter who told you there was. There was never a single instance of a second birth and your teachers nor you will ever be able to demonstrate it with Scripture. 

 

I think it is simple-minded to keep proclaiming salvation was always the same. Faith to please God, yes; faith to save, yes; the new birth; NEVER in the OT and Revelation seems clear that it will be that way again, no indwelling Spirit, new birth, regeneration, etc.

 

Being born again is unique to only the church age. Folks kept their faith and service to God in the OT times with HIs many helps in signs, voices, miracles, etc. This is also why I have zero belief in them now. I think it is made up by emotional, misinformed people and NOT determined by God to prove His presence by sight or voices or dreams anymore. He loved us so much that He not only sent His Son but He also gave us the Spirit to indwell/seal us. Giving us no way to screw THIS up again

 

The same applies to the tribulation, faith will save then also but faith must be held by the individual on their own without the indwelling Spirit sealing them. In other words, faith and salvation can be lost then as it could be lost in the OT and shown numerous times by the "individual people of Israel", not just the nation.

 

That is all I am saying - get it? Can I get a boom shaka laka, anybody?

And for all the poor souls on here that have no other christian fellowship than here, no worries. Ya ain't got to click it to like it

 

Just think about it. Or don't, who cares. Doesn't matter to our salvation or service to God now anyway. Not even sure why I cared to reply but I ain't gonna delete it now, I spent five minutes typing it.

[DaveW]

But Jesus told Nicodemus:

"John 3
 7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"

And this was before the comforter came.

Being born again then is not inherently connected to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, according to the Words of Jesus before His completed sacrifice, and before the coming of the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again at that time, then being born again must have been possible for Nicodemus before the completed sacrifice and before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[wretched]

But Jesus told Nicodemus:

"John 3
 7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"

And this was before the comforter came.

Being born again then is not inherently connected to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, according to the Words of Jesus before His completed sacrifice, and before the coming of the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again at that time, then being born again must have been possible for Nicodemus before the completed sacrifice and before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

Pretty weak assumption Dave when Jesus spoke it at the time of His first coming/earthy ministry which brought us His New Testament. But sure you win if you simply must.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If one could be born again before the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord, then our Lord died in vain.

[DaveW]

Pretty weak assumption Dave when Jesus spoke it at the time of His first coming/earthy ministry which brought us His New Testament. But sure you win if you simply must.

This is a curious answer. ...

I posted the VERY WORDS OF CHRIST when he was explaining to a man that Nicodemus must be born again.

I did so in response to you saying that a man can not be born again without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus spoke the words, He had not yet sent the Holy Spirit to indwell.

There is no assumption involved. It is Biblical record.

Jesus told Nicodemus to be born again at a time before the Holy Spirit was available to indwell, therefore being born again is NOT dependent upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Your answer is to ignore what is presented and give up without admitting that the Bible disagrees with your statement?

A curious approach.....

[wretched]

This is a curious answer. ...

I posted the VERY WORDS OF CHRIST when he was explaining to a man that Nicodemus must be born again.

I did so in response to you saying that a man can not be born again without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus spoke the words, He had not yet sent the Holy Spirit to indwell.

There is no assumption involved. It is Biblical record.

Jesus told Nicodemus to be born again at a time before the Holy Spirit was available to indwell, therefore being born again is NOT dependent upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Your answer is to ignore what is presented and give up without admitting that the Bible disagrees with your statement?

A curious approach.....

 

It is ok Dave, you win buddy

[DaveW]

It is ok Dave, you win buddy

Do you mean the Bible wins?

It doesn't matter whether or not I win.....

It does matter whether or not it is biblically true.

[ASongOfDegrees]

This is a curious answer. ...

I posted the VERY WORDS OF CHRIST when he was explaining to a man that Nicodemus must be born again.

I did so in response to you saying that a man can not be born again without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus spoke the words, He had not yet sent the Holy Spirit to indwell.

There is no assumption involved. It is Biblical record.

Jesus told Nicodemus to be born again at a time before the Holy Spirit was available to indwell, therefore being born again is NOT dependent upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Your answer is to ignore what is presented and give up without admitting that the Bible disagrees with your statement?

A curious approach.....

The new birth wouldn't occur until after Christ's resurrection. Jesus is revealing something to Nicodemus to take place in the future.

 

Also, John wrote his gospel long after the other three gospels and long after Paul's revelation. There is significance to that. (John 14:26)

 

No new birth without the indwelling, sealing Holy Spirit. There is an "operation" of God that takes place at the new birth that can only occur after the death and resurrection of Christ. 

[wretched]

Do you mean the Bible wins?

It doesn't matter whether or not I win.....

It does matter whether or not it is biblically true.

 

Well, then you don't win Dave, HA because is it only biblical in your mind and whoever taught you this.

[DaveW]

Quoting the Bible isn't biblical?

That's a new one on me.

And as for it being future?

"Nicodemus, you must be born again - but not yet..."

Sorry - I musta missed that verse...

[DaveW]

Well, then you don't win Dave, HA because is it only biblical in your mind and whoever taught you this.

Well I was taught this by God's Word, so I will stick with that if you don't mind.

[Covenanter]

The new birth wouldn't occur until after Christ's resurrection. Jesus is revealing something to Nicodemus to take place in the future.

 

Also, John wrote his gospel long after the other three gospels and long after Paul's revelation. There is significance to that. (John 14:26)

 

No new birth without the indwelling, sealing Holy Spirit. There is an "operation" of God that takes place at the new birth that can only occur after the death and resurrection of Christ. 

New birth is a metaphor that Nicodemus asked Jesus to explain - & Jesus expect him to know, as a master of Israel.

 

David knew the indwelling Holy Spirit:

Psalm 51:¹⁰ Create in me a clean heart, O God;
and renew a right spirit within me.
¹¹ Cast me not away from thy presence;
and take not thy holy spirit from me.
¹² Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation;
and uphold me with thy free spirit.

 

The patriarchs were born after the Spirit.

Gal. 4:²⁸ Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. ²⁹ But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. ³⁰ Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. ³¹ So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

Change the metaphor to a circumcised heart -

Deut. 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

The sinner who comes to God, his soul becomes alive -

Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

 

As for John being written long after the events, does the time of writing change the meaning? John was recording the words of Jesus teaching people during his time on earth.

[wretched]

Relax Dave and sorry I cannot quote today, although I could last night. Must be demons.

[No Nicolaitans]

I want to publicly apologize to AVBibleBeliever for anything that I said that may have caused strife.  If anyone else was offended by anything that I said, you also have my most sincere apology.

 

Most of all, I apologize for bringing any reproach upon the name and cause of Jesus Christ.